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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 15:28 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8483446.stm

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A 19-year-old motorist who hit and killed a cyclist on the A1 in Cambridgeshire has been found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving.

Major Gareth Rhys-Evans, 37, was killed when he was hit by Katie Hart's Ford Ka at Eaton Socon on 3 May 2009.

Hart, of Little Paxton, Cambs, told Peterborough Crown Court she did not see Maj Rhys-Evans, originally from west Wales, until she felt an impact.

A jury took five hours to return a unanimous verdict of guilty.

Maj Rhys-Evans was just under an hour into a cycling time trial when he was hit. He was pronounced dead at the scene.


little detail on the actual case.... how can you attempt to claim only careless driving ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 15:34 
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As you say, precious little detail. She drove into him from behind. However, I'm not sure what segregates this from "careless". I know it's to do with driving standard falling substantially below reasonable levels but I have always considered "dangerous" as having some element of deliberate intent as opposed to just not seeing something.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 19:38 
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malcolmw wrote:
As you say, precious little detail. She drove into him from behind. However, I'm not sure what segregates this from "careless". I know it's to do with driving standard falling substantially below reasonable levels but I have always considered "dangerous" as having some element of deliberate intent as opposed to just not seeing something.


From motoringlawers.com

"The key differences are that the standard of driving for careless driving is simply "below that" of a prudent motorist, and there is no obligation to establish any actual or risk of injury/damage. For dangerous driving, the standard has to be "far below" and it has to be obvious that there was a risk of personal injury or serious damage."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 20:01 
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Yes, and if you simply don't see someone for whatever reason, is it "obvious [to you] that there was a risk of personal injury or serious damage"?

This implies that your thought process must be "I'm going to do this. It's a bit risky but I should be OK" and this reinforces my post above about a level of deliberate action.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 23:08 
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malcolmw wrote:
As you say, precious little detail. She drove into him from behind. However, I'm not sure what segregates this from "careless". I know it's to do with driving standard falling substantially below reasonable levels but I have always considered "dangerous" as having some element of deliberate intent as opposed to just not seeing something.


As you say Malcolm - careless /due care -she didn't see him .Dangerous -she did see him ,overtook him with restricted space due to oncoming traffic( as example)and clipped him .

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:39 
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If she failed to see the cyclist in full daylight her eyes must have been closed or looking elsewhere than the road. In those circumstances there is an obvious risk of of personal injury or serious damage to other road users.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 01:52 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If she failed to see the cyclist in full daylight her eyes must have been closed or looking elsewhere than the road. In those circumstances there is an obvious risk of of personal injury or serious damage to other road users.


SO -CARELESS OR DANGEROUS-the choice ( as Cilla said) is your's :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 08:51 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If she failed to see the cyclist in full daylight her eyes must have been closed or looking elsewhere than the road. In those circumstances there is an obvious risk of of personal injury or serious damage to other road users.

This would make all SMIDSY accidents "dangerous".

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 19:48 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If she failed to see the cyclist in full daylight her eyes must have been closed or looking elsewhere than the road. In those circumstances there is an obvious risk of of personal injury or serious damage to other road users.


I wonder if there was another vehicle in front of her that obscured her view? If it pulled across to the right just before the bike she may have been watching it instead of ahead. This is not to supply an excuse, just wondering how she could fail to see him before hitting him.

I notice the major was taking part in a time trial, is it normal to run a cycle race on a busy dual carriageway? I am just thinking about how dangerous it would be for a couple of elephant racers to catch up a cyclist, imagine there is another lorry a few hundred yards in front of them for instance. The first time they might see the cyclist is when the lead lorry pulls over for it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 13:25 
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malcolmw wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
If she failed to see the cyclist in full daylight her eyes must have been closed or looking elsewhere than the road. In those circumstances there is an obvious risk of of personal injury or serious damage to other road users.

This would make all SMIDSY accidents "dangerous".


Yes. Failing to see a bicycle in daylight or a well lit bicycle at night is "far below" the expectations on a reasonable driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 23:05 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Yes. Failing to see a bicycle in daylight or a well lit bicycle at night is "far below" the expectations on a reasonable driver.


By that extension so is rear ending an unlit bicycle at night.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 23:45 
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toltec wrote:
I notice the major was taking part in a time trial, is it normal to run a cycle race on a busy dual carriageway?


sadly... yes, it's not the most pleasant of experiences.
although to be honest this is often better than doing so on SC & narrower roads as 9/10 the traffic can pass wide without issue.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 23:55 
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ed_m wrote:
toltec wrote:
I notice the major was taking part in a time trial, is it normal to run a cycle race on a busy dual carriageway?

sadly... yes, it's not the most pleasant of experiences.
although to be honest this is often better than doing so on SC & narrower roads as 9/10 the traffic can pass wide without issue.

Maybe such events shouldn't take place on public roads at all. After all, it's not allowed for motor vehicles.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 00:30 
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PeterE wrote:
ed_m wrote:
toltec wrote:
I notice the major was taking part in a time trial, is it normal to run a cycle race on a busy dual carriageway?

sadly... yes, it's not the most pleasant of experiences.
although to be honest this is often better than doing so on SC & narrower roads as 9/10 the traffic can pass wide without issue.

Maybe such events shouldn't take place on public roads at all. After all, it's not allowed for motor vehicles.


Perhaps not, but then i still see plenty of people cycling up DCs to/from work.

You'll have to get a change to the RTA which explicitly allows such events, but then I don't see cycle TTs as being much different to car reliability trials & car runs which do seem to be allowed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 00:51 
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weepej wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Yes. Failing to see a bicycle in daylight or a well lit bicycle at night is "far below" the expectations on a reasonable driver.


By that extension so is rear ending an unlit bicycle at night.

I am assuming we don't need to debate how an unilluminated road user (any type, no need to limit ourselves to cyclists) is equally as safe/noticeable as a lit (by lamp or daylight) one.

Of course, a driver must be able to stop in the distance one can expect to be clear; unfortunately, cycling unlit in darkness would also fall "far below" the expectations on a reasonable cyclist.
Everyone is responsible for their own and each others safety; let's not let one road user group be able to abrogate their responsibility onto another.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 00:56 
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ed_m wrote:
You'll have to get a change to the RTA which explicitly allows such events, but then I don't see cycle TTs as being much different to car reliability trials & car runs which do seem to be allowed.

The difference is: for car TTs the roads are always closed off to non-participants.
Now, we could apply the same to cycling TTs, but the obvious question is: is that reasonable?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 01:27 
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ed_m wrote:
You'll have to get a change to the RTA which explicitly allows such events, but then I don't see cycle TTs as being much different to car reliability trials & car runs which do seem to be allowed.

Car time trials are specifically prohibited. Non time specific rallies of various kinds are allowed, as they are with pedal cycles.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 01:28 
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Steve wrote:
ed_m wrote:
You'll have to get a change to the RTA which explicitly allows such events, but then I don't see cycle TTs as being much different to car reliability trials & car runs which do seem to be allowed.

The difference is: for car TTs the roads are always closed off to non-participants.
Now, we could apply the same to cycling TTs, but the obvious question is: is that reasonable?


But then , could the case of Jason McIntyre be put in the samelight ?
He was cycling down a single carriageway , when hit by a vehicle pulling out ( and I've put up photos on cycling ) -

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:09 
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Steve wrote:
ed_m wrote:
You'll have to get a change to the RTA which explicitly allows such events, but then I don't see cycle TTs as being much different to car reliability trials & car runs which do seem to be allowed.

The difference is: for car TTs the roads are always closed off to non-participants.
Now, we could apply the same to cycling TTs, but the obvious question is: is that reasonable?


Section31 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act states that the Secretary of State may authorise or provide for authorising a cycle race on a public highway. In practice it a senior police officer who actually authorises a cycle race. The act also gives the police the power to stop or divert other traffic. In general the police are happy to allow a time trial to go ahead without closing the road providing that it confirms to the rules of the sport's governing body . But it would be very unusual for tthem to permit a massed start race without, at the very least, a rolling road closure around the peloton.

Competitors like to compete on fast dual carriageways because they gain speed from the wind of passing cars. Some of the more ambitious ones try, against the rules, to increase this advantage by forcing overtaking vehicles to pass them more closely. That obviously puts hem at greater risk of a, usually fatal, acident.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 19:40 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Section31 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act states that the Secretary of State may authorise or provide for authorising a cycle race on a public highway. In practice it a senior police officer who actually authorises a cycle race. The act also gives the police the power to stop or divert other traffic. In general the police are happy to allow a time trial to go ahead without closing the road providing that it confirms to the rules of the sport's governing body . But it would be very unusual for tthem to permit a massed start race without, at the very least, a rolling road closure around the peloton.

Competitors like to compete on fast dual carriageways because they gain speed from the wind of passing cars. Some of the more ambitious ones try, against the rules, to increase this advantage by forcing overtaking vehicles to pass them more closely. That obviously puts hem at greater risk of a, usually fatal, acident.


Do they put up warning signs to alert motorists to the TT being run? Cyclists on extra urban DCs are not that common so some kind of warning would help a lot, it is possible that the 19 year old driver had never seen a cyclist on the A1 and had not realised this was a possibility.

Given the cyclists are doing a TT they are not going to be pootling along at 5-10mph so at least the speed differential is probably no greater than a slow goods vehicle or farm equipment. It should be possible for a cycle TT to be run reasonably safely on a quiet DC, I can understand ed_m's point about passing on SCs so perhaps with preparation a DC would be better. The other alternative is to hire/pay for a track as car drivers do for track days.

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