Safe Speed Forums

Not at all; I don’t see that anywhere in this thread.
What I do see is warnings that folks risk not getting the courtesy and safety they expect, if they persist in unnecessarily/wantonly taking up space for themselves that could have reasonably been filled with themselves and other road users.

This issue is not about cyclists. Much the same argument is used against some drivers too: "middle lane hoggers" who waste road space and cause needless congestion.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Can’t say I blame you Ed. It’s just that I know you have forgotten more about cycling than I’ll ever know. (Is your resting pulse rate still about 12 beats per minute btw? )

I hope that 25+ pages at least shows that SS is passionate about cycling and that there are more cyclists on here than first meets the eye. I think we just got off to a bad start because we were trying to describe how one entity coexists with another when we should have started with some ground rules, definitions and specifics.

I confess as a result of this thread I am inclined to use the PP more and see how I get on, but if you don’t hear from me again assume the worse...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

OED
curb n .
3. an enclosing border or edging
4. =KERB

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Here's one of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYipfgAlFKM
(This morning.)
My mistake ... I should have been out in the centre of the lane.

HC rule 163: "... give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211-215)"

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

That cycle lane is laughable, but sadly typical of the piss-poor provision in this country. We'd be better off without lanes like that. Compare that clip with your film from the Netherlands. The BMW driver was a pillock, but there you go. Had you known about the "pinch point" created by the right-turning van, then yes, you would have been safer further out to prevent that idiot BMW driver from taking a chance with your life. But, it's a difficult one as without constant rear observation, you could not have foreseen what would happen. C'est la vie. What can we do to change our car culture?

Wiki: American_and_British_English_spelling_differences

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

That BMW driver possibly was a pillock, but the car did not encroach into the cycle lane; in fact the driver left a gap to the dividing lines when passing.

I would like you to clarify the following (I don't wish to strawman you, so please do correct me if my interpretation is wrong):
Are you now saying that you now would, and would recommend, riding in the centre of that lane by default?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Oxford English Dictionary is more definitive than Wickipedia. But my wife is even more definative so KERB it is

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Well this one isn't going to die a death is it? So I might as well put my two penneth in.
Most of my riding has been done in rural areas or small towns so don't really have much experience with man made pinch points.

Most of my riding has been done on busy main roads like the A5, A442,A49 which have a lot of fast ,heavy traffic or rural twisty NSL that also have fast traffic with little visibilty round bends.

In neither of those situations would I dream of riding any further out from the kerb (or edge of the road to be more precise in these situations) than I possibly could or I don't think I would be here now. I'm with Claire, on the fact that a couple of foot passing distance wouldn't bother me (probably be a luxury in some cases) but then I'm one of those people who has little or low perception of danger (the sort of idiot who would stand at the edge of a steep drop and look over...lol) nor would I be bothered about riding on or between the yellow lines.

Personally, i think riding in the middle of the road, is an unneccessary danger and an inconvenience to others.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

That is sad ed_m. I try hard to encourage good debate. I know that (as I have stated) there are many aspects to this, and I can sympathise with your stance but it is a shame.
Do tell me though what cycling you have done (sound intriguing) that would be interesting ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I would absolutely love that and it's how I ovetake cyclists when I am driving, as much as possible and practicable.

But in the real world that is idealistic, not realistic, and that is where it falls down Grumps; big time in Brum actually.

I mean really, seriously, just look at that picture FFS! Yeah, that's the A38 going through Edgbaston into Birmingham City Centre.

Spin spin spin.

Okay, sorry, not spin but please - come on...

I know, I’ll take a different picture from my world shall I?

Add: And if I was that cyclist on that perfect road uunder those circumstances I would be next to that lovely curb/kerb where there are no pedestrians; why wouldn't I be???

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Possibly? Come on!

Incidentally, from my "Message to Courteous Motorists", to which I have referred already a couple of times: "When I do use a designated cycle lane thank you for realizing that this does not give you carte-blanche to ignore highway code rule 163. There are some other drivers who think that it is OK to pass me at speed within a few inches in this circumstance, making cycle lanes often more dangerous than if they hadn’t been there."

Your comment about (non-)encroachment illustrates precisely the attitudes of many drivers when there are (usually inadequate) cycle lanes present; I really didn't think I'd hear it from you, though. It seems to be one of the unfortunate consequences of the presence of cycle lanes that they cause motorists to think in this way. I think this post in the CycleChat forums is amusing, satisfying and, whilst not specifically about cycle lanes, germane as well. ("Well, I didn't hit you" is pretty close to "Well, he didn't encroach on the cycle lane".)


No, that's a very good question, not strawman and not nitpicking in fact I have indeed been thinking about it on and off today. (Remember the first of my motivations for video recording my journeys: Learning.)

As JBr rightly pointed out: "had [I] known about the "pinch point" created by the right-turning van, then yes, [I] would have been safer further out to prevent that idiot BMW driver from taking a chance with [my] life. But, it's a difficult one as without constant rear observation, [I] could not have foreseen what would happen". Well, I use that route every time I commute by bicycle, and there is sometimes an issue there with drivers' behaviour when other drivers turning right, though I haven't experienced one this bad at that point before. So the question is: "should I move out further at this specific point (along with a bit of space before it to avoid sudden, unpredictable behaviour) to prevent this from occurring in future?" The answer is that I don't know yet, I will probably try some things out and see how they work, though many would say that I should do.

JBr is also right in implying that the cycle lane causes problems rather than preventing them, and it would be better if it hadn't been there. This is because it creates in following motorists a feeling of entitlement to barge on through as long as they don't technically encroach on the cycle lane. Had the cycle lane not been there, I would probably have been a little further out to start with, and the car driver might not have felt he had "right of way".

Incidentally, it is fortunate that I am a fairly good cyclist and checked behind (as I always do) before moving to the edge of the cycle lane to get around the severely sunken, badly repaired drain that you can see. I've seen many cyclists who do not check back enough and they could well have been hit by the car's nearside mirror. If that had been the case, provided there were witnesses, the driver would have been at serious risk of being charged with dangerous driving, irrespective of whether he actually entered the cycle lane.

Anyway, I do think this video clip illustrates a number of the issues that we have been discussing here.

Tone: Yes, I do accept people coming a bit closer than that, but you have to agree that this guy really was taking the piss!

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

Phew! I'm sorry but I've lost track of what video you're referring to now cuz there's been a few

But it comes down to mutual respect and what we have ended up with is mutual disrespect - and that is a recipe for disaster!

Of the two, I know who is going to come off worse so I keep to the left as much as I can. I'd rather not aggravate the wild animal who is stronger...

This is a story of Tony O'Eden
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right, as he cycled along
But he's just as dead as if he were wrong.

Maybe I should add that I have met many in my job who have survived.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Unfortunately, I have to refer to you the same technical flaw that I pointed out earlier: he passed you with as least as much space as he did with the van.
And yes, he more than likely was a pillock.


I'm not sure the issue is as clear cut as that.


Not really. It's funny how you view things being closer than how I view them
He also left a gap to the cycle lane (the gap to the wheel was about half the width of the cycle lane itself, as he passed you), so something else must have occurred for that to been as close as he was.


Yaaay, for both accepting the question in the spirit for which it was intended, and for reflecting on the incident.


You checked; that's a really good thing. So you must have had at least some awareness.

However, there was still a lack of space, and time, for you to react. I’m curious to know why you maintained position when you must have known something was amiss.

I would have been further in. The pedestrian argument doesn't apply here.
Yes I saw the grate was sunk, but I still would have been more left than you were; doing so would have left more room. In that situation I would have considered going over the grate, to give myself even more room. Not that it mattered too much; you were still about a second away from the grate after the BMW passed you.

Could you imagine what would happen if you were further out and that BMW still wanted to thread the needle? I can. You would have been at a greater risk of a left-hook from such p155-taking drivers, especially those frustrated by the needless hold up. Added to that is the strong possibility of slow/stationary vehicles wanting to turn right; your being further right when approaching that could end up being really nasty.

If you tell me where that occurred (privately by PM if you wish), I will tell you what speed the passing BMW was doing.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

OK, not much to answer here. I leave the video as testament to the event and people can make their own minds up; I don't need to answer your "cross-examination".

It is true that the advice in the HC is ambiguous, but I think the picture clears that up (notwithstanding what Tone said).

It's alright, I'm not intending to bring a prosecution, so I really don't need to know the precise speed.

Thanks for your various items of advice, I'll take them into consideration along with all other evidence, etc.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

Interesting that you feel a post about another road-user turning onto the road from a side-street across the path of a cyclist is germane to the topic of being passed too closely.

Let me ask this of you: What distance, in feet and inches or metres and centimetres, whichever you are more comfortable with, is the minimum you would be happy with another road-user passing you, and what distance, in similar units of measurement, from the kerb do you habitually ride?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

A few queries - as this is a regular route for you have you asked the Council to properly raise the drain to match the road ?
When you looked back just prior to the silver BMW passing you, what did you see ?
As you say this is a regular route I guess you have much experience and knowledge of events that might occur, at this section of road and all the types of events (big and small), that may happen. Assuming of course you consider these things as I appreciate that not everyone does.

Let's establish the road environment, from your video first :
There is the traffic light controlled junction which looks like (correct me if I am wrong) that it has two vehicle lanes of traffic flow and a cycle lane, various left turns (4 that I saw), as the road continues there are white direction arrows indicating that vehicles need to move left, just prior to the broken white line lane divider, which allows for the R and L turning traffic.
Apart from any specifics like business signs, post box and road surface changes, have I missed anything that may alter someone's actions or intentions, not obvious in the video that may influence the road environment ?

So then, to analyse it the way I see it unfolding is this :
Lights are green and you have set of, a few vehicles also set off in the off side lane first, which makes me wonder if someone was waiting to pass you and were unable to due to the 2nd lane being occupied ? Possibly the Taxi had to wait for a right turner at the lights?
Something makes you take several glances back, is that from the drain, the narrowing road or the noise of two approaching vehicles ?
Which leads me to another question, when you looked back and saw (I assume until you can ans the above question) the vehicles, and you know that the road narrows did it occur to you that you might be heading into a potential 'closing gap' event ?
If the van set of a a similar time to the BMW then might he have thought that he was trying to get in front of the BMW to complete the 'return to left of road' ? Or as he seems to be moving left and then back was he ahead of the BMW all the time, if so then could the BMW have pulled out from behind the van, pulling left to 'undertake him' and then to his amazement (perhaps) finds a cyclist. S/he may have decided there was room, as the van starts to head back to the road centre, but when did the BMW misjudge this ill thought out manoeuvre, the root was not clear (you were in it), and s/he should have braked and allowed time, for the van to move further over, and to give you much greater space, consideration and thought. Could s/he also have done a right turn into this road and the van had hidden you mostly from view until fairly late on ? as the BMW moves 'out a bit' after passing you than can be a classic sign of reacting after the event as the brain to limbs catches up !
if incidents are that rare here then this may have been an exception but that does not prevent you from considering a better plan of action or better awareness to help yourself in the future. Being ready for vehicles to reduce to one lane, plus the turning traffic will mean that you need to be more prepared when traffic is more dense.
However, I cannot help feeling too, that had this happened in central London, would you have given it a second thought, as it would be happening for most of your route? And likewise had a vehicle passed you this close on a good quality otherwise empty rural A or B road then you may have felt vulnerable.

Although initially I thought that perhaps the c/lane was helping to cause the car to (possibly) show 'you're in your lane' so 'you have enough space and I can get by' kind of attitude. This could show the disadvantage that a cycle lane can provide through an apparent visual barrier of safety that may not be there .... I now don't think that this was the case, I think his speed position, and ongoing 'after positioning', tells us that something else happened, and he 'found himself going too fast for conditions' and was 'in the problem' before s/he had time to apply proper control. (S/he still should have braked.)

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

What's it say about 'know it alls?'

Tone: "there've been a few [videos]". Presumably you mean in the same page as your post (25). OK, so let's count them: 1... er ... er ... yes, 1. (Sorry for that momentary lapse into nitpicking.)

SafeSpeedV2: Interesting analysis.

When I was waiting at the lights (in the pathetic excuse for a cycle lane), the private hire car was in the first lane and the grey car that later preceded it was in the outside lane. At this point, the van and the BMW were nowhere in sight; they were probably at the previous set of lights. When the lights changed, the grey car went off like the proverbial bat out of hell; the private hire car hung back and then moved out about a metre to make a nice overtake with the right amount of clearance. (Some private hire drivers are good, courteous drivers!) When I looked back, I was preparing to move out slightly to go around the sunken drain (but revised that plan pretty sharpish as you can see). I can't remember the relative positions of the van and BMW when I looked back. However, given the phasing of the lights and the speeds, the van and the BMW almost certainly came up from behind on the same road, and it is almost certain that neither of them turned turned right onto the road. Given the speed of the BMW relative to the van, it is again almost certain that the BMW came up behind the van and overtook it on the left. (Yes, I know the van was indicating right.) The arrow directing traffic in the outside lane to move in is in preparation for the shaded area ahead. (I do think this road layout is stupidly designed as it implies right turners should move into lane 1 just before they move out to turn right.) It is possible that the van moved in slightly (WVM has a tendency to do that); This would make it possible to conclude the BMW driver might have been just a very bad driver rather than a complete pillock. (He should not under any circumstances have overtaken the van on the inside with a cyclist in that position ahead.)

Steve. That drain is sunken by about 4 inches (I checked this morning). If I tell you where it is will you come and ride over it on your bike and I'll take the video? It will make a nice clip for Gaz545's Silly Cyclist series.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

Oh, Robin, don't be an idiot. I told you precisely why it is germane.


As a broad generalization, one metre minimum, though it would also depend on what speed they were doing and what speed I was doing, as well as the condition of the road, the weather conditions, etc.


Well, I don't "habitually" ride in any particular position; I try to take up the road position that I consider appropriate for the conditions. However, if it is a fairly clear road with only typical hazards near the kerb (drains, grit, stones, etc.), and not at a pinch point, then between 0.5 and 0.75 metres from the kerb.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange