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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 17:58 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
Accountability for cyclists is only achievable by registration

Really? So, for example, accountability for shoplifting is only achievable by registration of all shoppers?

The driving parallel to this shoplifting example is to have a police officer standing in every street.
Who needs ID marks when you can pull the perp there and then?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 19:29 
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Steve wrote:
The driving parallel to this shoplifting example is to have a police officer standing in every street.
Who needs ID marks when you can pull the perp there and then?


Shoplifting is a bad parallel because, as you suggest, shoplifters are usually caught red-handed by store staff. But the police identify and arrest pedestrians for scores of crimes without the benefit of registration plates on said pedestrians back-sides And if the offences committed against Robin were of sufficient import the police would have little trouble tracking down the miscreant.

On a practical point. How would you put an identification mark on a bicycle so that it was possible to read it as the bike passed you at speed? It would be quite difficult to attach eight inch square registration plates, front and rear, on a pedal cycle

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 19:58 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
The driving parallel to this shoplifting example is to have a police officer standing in every street.
Who needs ID marks when you can pull the perp there and then?


Shoplifting is a bad parallel because, as you suggest, shoplifters are usually caught red-handed by store staff. But the police identify and arrest pedestrians for scores of crimes without the benefit of registration plates on said pedestrians back-sides

Yes, but the rate of identification isn't anywhere near the same.

dcbwhaley wrote:
On a practical point. How would you put an identification mark on a bicycle so that it was possible to read it as the bike passed you at speed? It would be quite difficult to attach eight inch square registration plates, front and rear, on a pedal cycle

If given a choice: I wouldn't at all!

If pushed: such a mark need not be placed front and rear; they could be mounted sideways, within the diamond portion of the frame, or placed in a disk within the spokes.
Being as speed isn't an issue, I could also consider placing a plate directly on the handlebars - just like a shopping basket.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 20:19 
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Steve wrote:
Yes, but the rate of identification isn't anywhere near the same.


The same as what?

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I could also consider placing a plate directly on the handlebars - just like a shopping basket.


I have, among my cycling memorabilia, a pre WWII Dutch bicycle registration plate. It is about two inches square with two slots in it for a leather strap to attach it to a frame tube. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 21:24 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
The driving parallel to this shoplifting example is to have a police officer standing in every street.

Shoplifting is a bad parallel because, as you suggest, shoplifters (a) are usually caught red-handed by store staff(c). But the police identify and arrest pedestrians (b) for scores of crimes without the benefit of registration plates on said pedestrians back-sides

Yes, but the rate of identification isn't anywhere near the same.

The same as what?

The rate of identification for a) is not the same as that for b), this difference is because of c)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 23:41 
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Steve wrote:
The rate of identification for a) is not the same as that for b), this difference is because of c)

Do you have a source for that assertion?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 00:04 
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PeterE wrote:
Toltec wrote:
There is going to be some skew as most cycling miles are probably done in urban areas, still I suspect cars are going to do more than 100 times as much total mileage as cycles.

Assuming the oft-quoted figure of an average car load factor of 1.6, this makes the mileage ratio about 54:1. Therefore 4 plays 433 suggests that pedal cycles are about half as likely to cause a pedestrian fatality, per mile travelled, than cars. Twice as good, yes, but still broadly in the same ballpark.



My suspicions are obviously unfounded, shows what happens when you estimate from what you think you see on the road. Still a bit surprised by how close the results are for cycles and cars.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 00:08 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
The rate of identification for a) is not the same as that for b), this difference is because of c)

Do you have a source for that assertion?

I have only common sense I'm afraid.
Are pedestrians "usually caught" [usually: that which most commonly occurs] for their crimes? A quick glance at ground peppered with chewing gum, litter and doggie doo doo suggests otherwise.

To recap: I'm undoing a strawman; one doesn't need registration if there is adequate local security.
We are in agreement that the the shoplifting example is a bad parallel, so I think we can leave that there.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 01:24 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I have, among my cycling memorabilia, a pre WWII Dutch bicycle registration plate. It is about two inches square with two slots in it for a leather strap to attach it to a frame tube. :D



Funnily enough I saw a girl riding an old dutch bike with plates front and rear recently, I overtook her, she then overtook me and went straight through a red light whilst me and three or four other cyclists (without reg plates) waited for it, which is kinda ironic given the way this thread is going!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:47 
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weepej wrote:
Funnily enough I saw a girl riding an old dutch bike with plates front and rear recently, I overtook her, she then overtook me and went straight through a red light whilst me and three or four other cyclists (without reg plates) waited for it, which is kinda ironic given the way this thread is going!


You should have taken her number and phoned the police. I am sure that they would have sent an armed response unit to sort her out. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:51 
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Steve wrote:
Are pedestrians "usually caught" [usually: that which most commonly occurs] for their crimes? A quick glance at ground peppered with chewing gum, litter and doggie doo doo suggests otherwise.


The capture rate is probably broadly [i.e within an order of magnitude] the same as the capture rate for motorists exceeding the speed limit.

Quote:
To recap: I'm undoing a strawman; one doesn't need registration if there is adequate local security.

Is it a straw man? Robin appears to be seriously considering registration as the answer to his problems with cyclists.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:03 
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It is merely one option and, as stated, I am open to others, hence why the topic is titled 'Accountability' and not 'Registration'. If it were to prove a solution, should it not be given consideration? I could counter that some here are not giving it any consideration at all, apparently because they view any attempt to encourage cyclists to join in and play by the rules as anti-cyclist, and view the transgressions of others, elsewhere, as justification for additional lawlessness.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:46 
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RobinXe wrote:
It is merely one option and, as stated, I am open to others, hence why the topic is titled 'Accountability' and not 'Registration'. If it were to prove a solution, should it not be given consideration? I could counter that some here are not giving it any consideration at all, apparently because they view any attempt to encourage cyclists to join in and play by the rules as anti-cyclist, and view the transgressions of others, elsewhere, as justification for additional lawlessness.

Robin, people are giving it consideration. I, for one, have made a serious attempt to look at the costs vs benefits of registration, and have taken the trouble to search out the relevant statistics to inform the discussion. How does that translate into "not giving it any consideration at all, apparently because they view any attempt to encourage cyclists to join in and play by the rules as anti-cyclist"? The arguments that have been presented (i.e. consideration) include:

The likely benefits are far outweighed by the costs - backed up by comprehensive statistical data. Your only answer to that has been to push that cost onto cyclists, thereby getting responsible cyclists to bear the whole cost of dealing with a group of anti-social pillocks who just happen also to be using bicycles.

The impact of such a scheme is unlikely to be significant in any case - backed up by arguments that registration of motorists has not stopped huge numbers of transgressions from going unpunished. As far as I can see, you have offered no answer to that.

I think it is clear from the discussion that every single person here agrees that the anti-social behaviour of a whole bunch of people, some of whom happen to use bicycles, is a problem and needs to be dealt with.

The blindness that you seem to be suffering is your belief that there is a single homogeneous group of people whom you call "cyclists", who are all law-breaking anti-social pricks and need to be "dealt with" as a group. That is just nonsense; in fact it is akin to a form of bigotry. (Evidence: your statement "they view any attempt to encourage cyclists to join in and play by the rules as anti-cyclist".)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 13:11 
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RobinXe wrote:
I could counter that some here are not giving it any consideration at all, apparently because they view any attempt to encourage cyclists to join in and play by the rules as anti-cyclist, and view the transgressions of others, elsewhere, as justification for additional lawlessness.


But you won't use that counter, will you? Because it is not possible to draw that conclusion from what has been posted on here. I have considered the option of registration and rejected it on the grounds that it would not address the problem that is bothering you. I am much more optimistic that a proper cycle training scheme (not CP) for children when they are at that impressionable age would be much more effective.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 13:30 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
Are pedestrians "usually caught" [usually: that which most commonly occurs] for their crimes? A quick glance at ground peppered with chewing gum, litter and doggie doo doo suggests otherwise.


The capture rate is probably broadly [i.e within an order of magnitude] the same as the capture rate for motorists exceeding the speed limit.

Possibly, but that wasn't being discussed (which was the failure of the shoplifting parallel)

dcbwhaley wrote:
Quote:
To recap: I'm undoing a strawman; one doesn't need registration if there is adequate local security.

Is it a straw man? Robin appears to be seriously considering registration as the answer to his problems with cyclists.

I believe MGC and you were wrong with your inference; I see nothing that forwarded registration as the sole solution (hence me claiming stawman).
"Appears" is a function of perception, it can be tainted by bias.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 14:29 
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Steve wrote:
I believe MGC and you were wrong with your inference; I see nothing that forwarded registration as the sole solution (hence me claiming stawman).

malcolmw wrote:
Accountability for cyclists is only achievable by registration and thus there is only one topic, thread (call it what you like).

Attention to detail, Steve!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 14:47 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
I believe MGC and you were wrong with your inference; I see nothing that forwarded registration as the sole solution (hence me claiming stawman).

malcolmw wrote:
Accountability for cyclists is only achievable by registration and thus there is only one topic, thread (call it what you like).

Attention to detail, Steve!

I may not have been clear enough:

dcbwhaley wrote:
Is it a straw man? Robin appears to be seriously considering registration as the answer to his problems with cyclists.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 15:06 
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Steve wrote:
I believe MGC and you were wrong with your inference; I see nothing that forwarded registration as the sole solution (hence me claiming stawman).

Steve wrote:
I may not have been clear enough:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Is it a straw man? Robin appears to be seriously considering registration as the answer to his problems with cyclists.

Finding it difficult to reconcile these two statements. Could you explain?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 15:18 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I am much more optimistic that a proper cycle training scheme (not CP) for children when they are at that impressionable age would be much more effective.

I would like to see this too but, while it might improve behaviour, would it increase accountability?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 15:45 
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Steve said "I see nothing that forwarded registration as the sole solution..

But, as Grumps pointed out, Malcolmw had previously said "Accountability for cyclists is only achievable by registration"

Therefore: either Steve, in despite of his meticulous attention to detail, failed to see Malcolm's post; or Steve is guilty of a terminological inexactitude in that statement. In either case that statement is wrong.

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