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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 09:45 
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It's good that finally, RobinXe is engaging with the discussion he started.

This is not an administrative problem, it is a sociological problem, and as such requires solutions rooted in human behaviour, not ever more ludicrous taxation and registration schemes.

Those antisocial cyclists do what they do because they can get away with it, and that's because there is much less peer pressure than in previous times. Fewer people are prepared to make an example of the perpetrators of antisocial acts, for many reasons, not least of which is the decreasing number of local people getting around on foot, because of long-distance commuting, supermarkets, out-of-town housing, all of which has been made possible by cheap fuel.

If you were intending to commit some sort of antisocial act, would you do it if you thought your next-door neighbours would see you do it? Or your boss, or sister-in-law, or local butcher, or newsagent, etc etc? There are so few people about that perps can be quite anonymous.

The same goes for people in cars. Despite a very elaborate registration system, and the legal requirement to display registration plates on vehicles, there is plenty of antisocial use of cars going on. People drive and park on the pavement with no shame, they use mobile phones while driving, they cross the stop line at red lights, they don't give way to pedestrians crossing the road, they even break the speed limit. People think they are anonymous in their cars. If they weren't, and there was a strong likelihood their behaviour would be noticed and remarked upon by their boss, sister-in-law etc, I'm sure they would not do it. This, to me, is a very good reason for not tolerating blacked-out windows in cars.

So, the solution is going to be complex, certainly more than a simplistic registration scheme, which demonstrably will not reduce antisocial behaviour. A good start would be to encourage more localism, less long-distance commuting, more local shops, less out-of-town development. This would increase the number of people out and about on foot. I heard Quentin Willson on the news bleating on about fuel prices, demanding that the government subsidise our "road economy". A step in the right direction for our government would be to ignore this whingebag and start to implement policies to get people out of cars (fat chance, just look at the tax revenue from fuel sales).

Our love affair with the car has a lot to answer for.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:12 
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Trip down memory lane...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySVHFSCV1mo&feature=player_embedded


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:13 
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I think most of your points have been answered already, so I won't add much. Just to say that the situation with motor vehicles is significantly different to that with bicycles because motor vehicles, even with good drivers, bring significant risks to the public space they occupy. We have already established with reasonable certainty that cars, even with the tight registration and control, kill or seriously injure at least four times as many pedestrians per urban mile travelled as all these unregulated bicycles do. I already pointed out that it is blindingly obvious that 1.5 tonnes of powerful machinery ought to be registered and controlled if it is to be used in a public place. So making comparisons with car registration as an argument for bicycle regulation is daft.

Robin did remind me, though, of something I had completely forgotten after 20 years. My bicycle is in fact registered! Here is a snap I just took of the top bar:
Attachment:
20110304_002.jpg [40.27 KiB]
Downloaded 422 times

I'd show you the registration number, but I can't even remember where it is etched on the frame at the moment. :lol: Couldn't help laughing about that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:23 
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JBr wrote:

I think a key all along the side would be quite justified in that case.

I do feel a bit of nostalgia for those public information films. "Be seen, be safe", "Eh petunia, look at that farmer with the purple face", "# don't go parking in a passing place, somebody needs that yard of space". Definitely a bygone age.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:29 
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Oddly I thought this debate was about cycling, but ok, I appreciate that you have gone to the trouble of putting some genuine thought into a post JBr, finally.

I think we would do well to avoid lumping all "antisocial cyclists" into some homogenous group that we can demonise from our ivory towers; any of us can break the rules on the road at any given moment, and I suspect that it happens more often on a whim than with some malice aforethought. Any of us can become "antisocial cyclists" in an instant, and only remain so for a moment.

So what stops us from doing wrong on the roads? Ideally, in all situations for all people, it would be an overarching sense of social conscience. If only. Even those of high morals can find these taking a back seat to the pressures of everyday life, and often a transgression can seem so irrelevant in our own mind that the benefit seems to outweigh the risk. I believe that this is the far greater portion of the problem, rather than people intentionally setting out to be "pricks", as was so eloquently and urbanely put further up the thread.

So in these circumstances it is the imposition of morality through community that can keep us exhibiting good behaviour. As JBr notes, in days gone by it was the community that was known to us that could exert this pressure. Those days are gone, perhaps sadly, and I think we would do well to look to the future for solutions, rather than pining for the past. Thus, having a way that strangers could "know" us would enable the wider world to become our community, and the knowledge of such could help suppress the little devil on our shoulder.

It is true that antisocial behaviour still occurs with motor vehicles which already wear identifying marks. It is true that in some of these cases the marks are incorrectly worn and thus their effectiveness is diminished, but I'm sure we can all agree that while these cases may be amongst the more egregious, they are very much in the minority. So it's clear that registration is not the end in and of itself; it needs to be coupled with a means of the wider community letting transgressors know of their disapproval. This is where we need more road policing, dedicated to the task of spotting such behaviour and offering attitude adjustments, be it in the moment or followed up later with registration markings having facilitated identification. This will benefit the skills and attitudes of all road users.

It is worth noting that the motor car is far from the only driver (pardon the pun) in the move away from localism.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:31 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
I think a key all along the side would be quite justified in that case.


Forgive me; are you condoning criminal damage?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:01 
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RobinXe wrote:
Oddly I thought this debate was about cycling, but ok, I appreciate that you have gone to the trouble of putting some genuine thought into a post JBr, finally.

Thanks, RobinXe, that means a lot. I suppose I'm suggesting that a simple solution might not be the answer to a complex problem, now where have I heard that before?

RobinXe wrote:
I think we would do well to avoid lumping all "antisocial cyclists" into some homogenous group that we can demonise from our ivory towers

Remind me, who's been doing that?

RobinXe wrote:
So what stops us from doing wrong on the roads? Ideally, in all situations for all people, it would be an overarching sense of social conscience. If only. Even those of high morals can find these taking a back seat to the pressures of everyday life, and often a transgression can seem so irrelevant in our own mind that the benefit seems to outweigh the risk. I believe that this is the far greater portion of the problem, rather than people intentionally setting out to be "pricks", as was so eloquently and urbanely put further up the thread.

So in these circumstances it is the imposition of morality through community that can keep us exhibiting good behaviour. As JBr notes, in days gone by it was the community that was known to us that could exert this pressure. Those days are gone, perhaps sadly, and I think we would do well to look to the future for solutions, rather than pining for the past. Thus, having a way that strangers could "know" us would enable the wider world to become our community, and the knowledge of such could help suppress the little devil on our shoulder.

The Big Society is the future, not the past! In the past, those people were still strangers mostly, but by coming into contact with more people on a day-to-day basis, you would never know...

RobinXe wrote:
It is true that antisocial behaviour still occurs with motor vehicles which already wear identifying marks. It is true that in some of these cases the marks are incorrectly worn and thus their effectiveness is diminished, but I'm sure we can all agree that while these cases may be amongst the more egregious, they are very much in the minority. So it's clear that registration is not the end in and of itself; it needs to be coupled with a means of the wider community letting transgressors know of their disapproval. This is where we need more road policing, dedicated to the task of spotting such behaviour and offering attitude adjustments, be it in the moment or followed up later with registration markings having facilitated identification. This will benefit the skills and attitudes of all road users.

Now who's pining for the past? Do you think the future will bring more traffic police? Or will the Big Society police itself?

RobinXe wrote:
It is worth noting that the motor car is far from the only driver (pardon the pun) in the move away from localism.

I recognised that when I said "not least of which" previously. I do think the car has been quite a "biggie" though, in making our society more anonymous.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:12 
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RobinXe wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
I think a key all along the side would be quite justified in that case.

Forgive me;

Forgiven. :love:

RobinXe wrote:
are you condoning criminal damage?

Oops, did I say "key"? I meant "pram". Having a little trouble with my worms this morning.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:43 
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I'd be interested as to how you think The Big Society would have policed specifically the second incident I highlighted. Having called after the transgressor, with the intention of giving him a civil rebriefing, and having him cycle off, what were the options? I suppose I could have taken to my heels and gone after him, hoping he'd stop at the red light, but realistically what are the odds of that, given what we know of his behaviour?

Moreover, why should he stop for me? For all he knew, having just nearly hit me, I may have been minded to fill him in (I am aware that I cut an imposing figure, despite being a gentle giant in reality). We will certainly need people in positions of authority for the forseeable future. It's all very well holding ideals of what people should do, but we have to deal in what they do do.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 18:59 
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RobinXe wrote:
I'd be interested as to how you think The Big Society would have policed specifically the second incident I highlighted.


I don't know the answer to that. But it is pertinent to ask how registration would have made any difference. If you had taken his number andreported him to the Police how seriously do you think they would have taken the incident. Six cars with twos and blues chasing the miscreant or a polite acknowledgement with no further action?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 19:26 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
I'd be interested as to how you think The Big Society would have policed specifically the second incident I highlighted.


I don't know the answer to that. But it is pertinent to ask how registration would have made any difference. If you had taken his number andreported him to the Police how seriously do you think they would have taken the incident. Six cars with twos and blues chasing the miscreant or a polite acknowledgement with no further action?


I quite agree, which is why we need more traffic police on the roads, policing all road users.

Personally I also think we need to unencumber all of our police with less paperwork.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 23:00 
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RobinXe wrote:
Personally I also think we need to unencumber all of our police with less paperwork.


Would you care to expand on that?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 23:36 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
Personally I also think we need to unencumber all of our police with less paperwork.


Would you care to expand on that?


The police officers I know have often commented on how they spend far more time doing paperwork in the office, related to various offences and investigations, than they do out policing. They have also told me it has got worse and worse in recent years.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 08:37 
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RobinXe wrote:
The police officers I know have often commented on how they spend far more time doing paperwork in the office, related to various offences and investigations, than they do out policing. They have also told me it has got worse and worse in recent years.


Much of which, unfortunately, is needed to prevent miscarriages of justice of the kind which often occurred back in the days when the courts always assume that policemen were invariably honest. It is difficult to envisage a fair and safe system of justice without a proper paper trail on all the evidence.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 09:36 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
The police officers I know have often commented on how they spend far more time doing paperwork in the office, related to various offences and investigations, than they do out policing. They have also told me it has got worse and worse in recent years.


Much of which, unfortunately, is needed to prevent miscarriages of justice of the kind which often occurred back in the days when the courts always assume that policemen were invariably honest. It is difficult to envisage a fair and safe system of justice without a proper paper trail on all the evidence.


One would suppose that something like "Officer-Cam", which was in the press not so long ago, could provide similar safeguards whilst doing away with much of the paperwork. I'm under the impression that there is also a certain degree of nugatory form-filling which could be trimmed.

Paper is so last century!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:56 
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RobinXe wrote:
Paper is so last century!


So is a trustworthy judicial system. :(

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 19:23 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If you had taken his number and reported him to the Police how seriously do you think they would have taken the incident?

Don't get me started :x

Not that I blame the police and not aimed at you Dave. It does, however, make the law look like an ass.

They will only be allowed to use "the comfy chair" or a pillow for burglars at this rate.

(A speeder will, of course, be shot at dawn)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 05:40 
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Sorry chaps not had time to catch up on the last 5 pages ! Will do so later - but in answer to Robin's OP, how about a register of cyclists tutoring. So as people grow up and learn more and more, it is added to your 'record' and also if you are held to account for bad behaviour so is that added too.
So for your bike insurance (which many have for theft and 3rd party cover) if that record is marked good and bad then that is taken into account. So it covers many aspects that may encourage good behaviours with self interested added in to boot and saving money against insurance and also if ever found guilty in any way of bad behaviours / legal issues that gets legally added too. (It can at the moment onto your personal record but this would make it more official).
I do hate beauratic rubbish though and I detest that part of this but at least it is not the full hog of 'enforcement' and so on.
At least this way if you had seen a copper and got them to apprehend the person then ot might have been considered to be added in this case or even as a 'warning'.
Perhaps after 3 warnings a more serious Police Bike approved test might have to be passed, so that skills would be bushed up on.

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