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 Post subject: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 01:30 
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With more cyclists than ever on Britain's roads, an increasing number are coming into conflict with other road users.

Their latest weapon is wearing a miniature camera attached to helmets or handlebars, to capture bad driving.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12334486

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 02:36 
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The helmet cam often gives rise to an attitude of "I'm right and I can prove it" which can lead to risky over confidence IMHO.

Bolshy cyclists are more of a nuisance than careless drivers - they antagonise drivers needlessly, and give sensible cyclists a bad name doing it!

With or without a helmet cam, I will always yield if there is a restriction and let them go - the last thing I want is an impatient driver where I cannot see them, or what they are doing... better to let them go ahead where you can see them!
I'm happy to hang back or stop when oncoming drivers approach a restriction too - I'm cycling - what's a few more seconds or even a minute going to make to my journey or my day?

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 13:40 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
The helmet cam often gives rise to an attitude of "I'm right and I can prove it" which can lead to risky over confidence IMHO.

Bolshy cyclists are more of a nuisance than careless drivers

Some of these post their experiences online. They cycle in the middle of the carriageway for needlessly long periods, then act surprised when the drivers they wantonly frustrate pass them a bit too closely.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 14:01 
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Some footage IS really helpful - this one springs to mind!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJBNiEVSug

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 14:38 
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I await the first prosecution based on the evidence of their own camera of a cyclist riding through a red light. Not all a one way street, huh.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 15:32 
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You're unlikely to see that. The prats that break the law don't tend to wear cameras any more than do the car driving prats who drink, jump red lights, fail to give way when required or drive dangerously around cyclists. I guess you drive a car, so you must be a drink driving red light jumper who deserves to be killed! Is that correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 15:43 
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Welcome to Safespeed.

There is assymetry between cars having on-board cameras and cyclists with headcams both being fitted to gather evidence of potentially dangerous incidents. The car and probably its driver can be identified from the registration plate. No such easy identification can be made of errant cyclists.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 15:48 
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Steve wrote:
Some of these post their experiences online. They cycle in the middle of the carriageway for needlessly long periods, then act surprised when the drivers they wantonly frustrate pass them a bit too closely.


Yes I do think it's a great shame that I often feel the need to ride in primary position and hold up the good drivers just to prevent the minority of idiots out there from risking my life.

I post my experiences online and it is interesting how many times people have commented that I should have been riding further out into the road to prevent the problem from occurring. Their advice is indeed in line with the recommendations made in Bikability, the national standard for cycle training, and the recommended book "Cyclecraft".

You may be interested (or not) to read my Message to Courteous Motorists, in which I explain some of the practices that good cyclists adopt.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 15:57 
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The problem with the primary position is that you and I understand what it is, but to a lot of random motorists it could look like a passive aggressive attempt to hold them up.

Which it isn't, obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 16:11 
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malcolmw wrote:
Welcome to Safespeed.

Thank you :)

malcolmw wrote:
There is assymetry between cars having on-board cameras and cyclists with headcams both being fitted to gather evidence of potentially dangerous incidents. The car and probably its driver can be identified from the registration plate. No such easy identification can be made of errant cyclists.


You are correct that there is an asymmetry regarding vehicle registrations. I, for one, would have no problem with having a registration number, but it is impractical and uneconomical to attempt to register all cyclists.

The fact is, though, that I ride my lightweight machine under the power of my legs on the road by virtue of right of way and, whilst my doing that does introduce a slightly increased risk to other vulnerable road users, it is really very small. Motorists, on the other hand, are allowed, under licence, to take in excess of a tonne of potentially lethal metal machinery onto the road, with usually at least 100bhp of mechanical propulsion, which presents an enormous risk to other road users. This is a huge asymmetry between motorists and other road users, which is why they need to be traceable and therefore registered.

Another asymmetry is evident in research commissioned a couple of years ago by the Department for Transport, which showed that in 93% of accidents that result in a cyclist being seriously injured, the cyclist is not to blame.

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Last edited by MrGrumpyCyclist on Thu Feb 03, 2011 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 16:16 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:

Yes I do think it's a great shame that I often feel the need to ride in primary position and hold up the good drivers just to prevent the minority of idiots out there from risking my life.


IMHO-the problems are as a result of the wedge driving by safety authorities . Years ago all road users co existed together in courtesy .How much of the lack of courtesy is due to motoring training I know not .This in turn generates certain cyclists demanding a right of way .
The problem -lack of communication .The cure -IMHO -education .
Instead of thinking -"I'VE got right of way " - both sides might be better thinking "do unto other road users as I would that they do unto me "

But the cause of the genuine courtous cyclist is not helped by the yob element -who use the pavement as a second lane with no thought to any vehicle into who's path they might jump ,usually without warning .

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 16:28 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
The problem with the primary position is that you and I understand what it is, but to a lot of random motorists it could look like a passive aggressive attempt to hold them up.
Which it isn't, obviously.

Yes, this is a concern, not least because it sometimes causes rage and aggression in some of the motorists. (The ones who really should not be allowed behind the wheel of a car.) However, as I gain more experience, I am becoming more and more convinced that the danger from road ragers and bullies, who usually turn out to be cowards in the end, is far outweighed by the danger from some motorists who will take extreme risks with my life for the sake of a few seconds if I let them.
As I indicated before, since I started taking video, I have been amazed to see how many times the problems I have encountered have been at least partially attributable to the fact that I did not take a sufficiently strong position in the road. It's only when you actually do it and look back at the videos that you really can see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 16:35 
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botach wrote:
IMHO-the problems are as a result of the wedge driving by safety authorities . Years ago all road users co existed together in courtesy .How much of the lack of courtesy is due to motoring training I know not .This in turn generates certain cyclists demanding a right of way .
The problem -lack of communication .The cure -IMHO -education .
Instead of thinking -"I'VE got right of way " - both sides might be better thinking "do unto other road users as I would that they do unto me "
But the cause of the genuine courtous cyclist is not helped by the yob element -who use the pavement as a second lane with no thought to any vehicle into who's path they might jump ,usually without warning .


You are absolutely right. As "Magnatom" said in the Radio 5 Live interview the other night, this is about good road users versus bad road users, not, as the media love to present it "cyclists against motorists".

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 18:58 
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In how many of the 93% of cases did not being "to blame" protect the cyclist? Was there more they could have done to protect themselves? Do cameras help?

I am a biker, and I know how, as a more vulnerable road user, it can be easy to take umbrage with perceived indifference to our safety, and hence I do not buy into the suggestion that road rage is solely an affliction of the motorist.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 19:25 
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RobinXe wrote:
I am a biker, and I know how, as a more vulnerable road user, it can be easy to take umbrage with perceived indifference to our safety, and hence I do not buy into the suggestion that road rage is solely an affliction of the motorist.
:yesyes:

As a cyclist myself, I am very interested in your take on things Grumpy Cyclist. :welcome:

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 19:44 
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My personal hate is the "I pay road tax" argument.

"Road" tax is related to the vehicles polluting potential (it only pollutes when in use!) so a zero emission vehicle is exempt.
Cyclists fall naturally into that category! :)

I think riding a bike in traffic should be a part of the car test - and pedestrians should undertake training too! Don't think it'll happen in my lifetime though!!

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 20:12 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I think riding a bike in traffic should be a part of the car test - and pedestrians should undertake training tooo! Don't think it'll happen in my lifetime though!!
We got close I think Ernest, many years ago, which you may remember ;)

Cycling proficiency test and green cross code. :cloud9:

The sad thing today is that it is going to be people like me who are perceived to be evil for daring to suggest pedestrians or cyclists should bear some, or any, of the responsibility for their own safety.

These are sad times indeed...

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 20:16 
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Big Tone wrote:
The sad thing today is that it is going to be people like me who are perceived to be evil for daring to suggest pedestrians or cyclists should bear some, or any, of the responsibility for their own safety.

These are sad times indeed...


Or possibly add me to the list when I mention as before that we need to re unite road users to place responsibility for the safety of one on all ,not the safety of all on one group .

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 20:32 
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malcolmw wrote:
Welcome to Safespeed.

There is assymetry between cars having on-board cameras and cyclists with headcams both being fitted to gather evidence of potentially dangerous incidents. The car and probably its driver can be identified from the registration plate. No such easy identification can be made of errant cyclists.


Hi there. Long time cyclist myself, not actually a driver though I will state that I have no problem with drivers (just the few bad ones I'm sure we all dislike :D )

I think the problem with registration on cyclists is not just the high costs (change in law, admin), but also that it would have to be pretty small to fit safely on a bike. If a driver is cut up by some idiot on a bike who leaps off a pavement (and I fully accept this does happen from time to time - its happened to me on my bike, and its usually some chav) the chances are that driver would want to report the guy, but the plate being so small on a bike means that said driver would have to get pretty close to be able to read it.

There are ways around registration. Knowing full well that registration does not get a crime recorded (having been there, done that with the cops after a guy threatened me when I was a pedestrian one time), you could actually do what the bus and lorry companies do down here in Hampshire. Use a roadhawk system. Not only does it record video, but it uses GPS and audio so you can see the drop off in speed from braking, or if you sound your horn that will be picked up.

First used some camera footage to get some yob on a BMX prosecuted after he dropped off a kerb forcing the driver to slam on the anchors.

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In how many of the 93% of cases did not being "to blame" protect the cyclist? Was there more they could have done to protect themselves? Do cameras help?

I am a biker, and I know how, as a more vulnerable road user, it can be easy to take umbrage with perceived indifference to our safety, and hence I do not buy into the suggestion that road rage is solely an affliction of the motorist.


Road rage is definately a cultural phenomenom affect all road users, even pedestrians. Sometimes I have exclaimed out loud in shock, so others watching might think I'm raging off when infact I've just poo'd myself a little instead. Cyclists are also encouraged to give vocal warnings as bells cannot be heard inside a car, kepping it polite such as "bear right!" or "watchout!" It reminds people that there are human beings within the vicinity.

As for doing stuff to protect oneself... lots of people say high vis... trouble is now that a recent Australian study showed that people dont recognise or "see" high vis, even during daylight and clear visibility. On helmets, sadly theres no real proof that they do very much other than prevent cuts, several cyclists a year die from brain injury despite wearing them. DFT studies found that drivers will come closer if they see a helmet as they see a cyclist as "protected."

The only things really proven to make a difference are lights and good road craft. Beginners can definately benefit from things like Bikeability or National Standards. You dont even need to get the training, some can learn this stuff by reading the texts (cyclecraft, the highway code) and just being sensible.


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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 22:10 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
Some of these post their experiences online. They cycle in the middle of the carriageway for needlessly long periods, then act surprised when the drivers they wantonly frustrate pass them a bit too closely.


Yes I do think it's a great shame that I often feel the need to ride in primary position and hold up the good drivers just to prevent the minority of idiots out there from risking my life.

I post my experiences online and it is interesting how many times people have commented that I should have been riding further out into the road to prevent the problem from occurring. Their advice is indeed in line with the recommendations made in Bikability, the national standard for cycle training, and the recommended book "Cyclecraft".

I have to disagree with such sentiments. I speak as one experienced cyclist; I don't have facts and figures to support my point.

Only once in my life have I had a vehicle pass unreasonably close to me (that that was right at a speed camera site, and the driver was going quite slow).
I find it most coincidental that those who state they adopt strong primary positions are those who frequently complain about being passed too closely.
I've always been comfortable to adopt the secondary position where the primary position leaves me exposed for an unnecessary amount of time. Of course, drivers will do all they can to avoid running bikers over, so generally there isn't a problem when needing to pull out. I find a quick glance over the shoulder and a tactical pan right has always enough for me to claim my position.
However, every now and again you get a driver who doesn't quite notice, or doesn't care; for those, giving the widest berth possible seems to be the best strategy.

Simply 'staying out' for long periods will only result with road rage. Do you really want to frustrate a bad driver when you're in their path - and so exposed?

I've never suffered any abuse when riding; I suspect those who default to strong primary positions can't say the same.

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