Safe Speed Forums

A British Medical Journal poll asking: “Should it be compulsory for adult cyclists to wear helmets?” has returned a result that conflicts with the British Medical Association’s stated position on helmet compulsion.

http://road.cc/content/news/39882-british-medical-journal-poll-says-no-helmet-compulsion

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

And the reasons given for their decision...
Well here is the first one quoted...


Hmm. Great logic... let me see if it can be applied elsewhere...

Learning to swim has not been proved to prevent drowning - so should we bother before venturing out on water?

Lifeboats and lifebelts should not be allowed on cruise ships as it would give the impression that they are dangerous - which of course they are not.

Railings on top of large drops? What nonsense! One might think that danger might lurk beyond - surely everyone knows you just have to stay away from the edge and your safe!

I see there has been a huge drop in the number of motorcyclists since helmets became compulsory - the expense must put people off!

Can these idiots not come up with credible reasons why helmets should not be compulsory?
Or am I the only one wearing one from choice, and not because the BMJ says it should be so?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Many professional sailors cannot swim. Indeed some take a pride in that inability. And for the same reason that many cyclists do not wear helmets. The protection that the ability to swim offers against drowsing in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean is illusionary.


No they aren't. Very very few cruise ship passengers are lost by drowning. Far fewer than by food poisoning
And by your analogy to cycle helmets life jackets should be worn whenever you are on a cruise ship. My relations tell me that they gave cruised from South Africa to Alaska and have never worn a life jacket


You have no control and don't know what the motor cycle population would be if helmets were not compulsory


Why do you wear a helmet when cycling but not when walking or driving a car? Statistically you are at similar risk of head injury during all three activities. Considering the vast number of whiplash injuries that occur to car drivers and passengers do you think that neck braces should be compulsory for car occupants

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Substantiate or withdraw.

Do you have access to stats on motorcycle fatalities pre and post compulsion, coupled with levels of conformity?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=2&contentid=2011053120110531032920769a6f18114
http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=18784

And, of course, Barnacle Bill was famous in song for not being able to "swim a bloody stroke".



No. And neither does Ernest. Which is why his comment is inadmissible.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

My comment was ironic - motorcycle registrations increased steadily from the 1950s - and by 50% between 2000 and 2005 - and they ALL wear helmets, and are NOT put off by the thought that helmets indicate that they are dangerous!

I do not support bicycle helmet compulsion - I just think the anti comments quoted were not good enough!

My own view is this:
People who CAN swim have a chance - they might make it to a lifeboat. Those who cannot swim have less chance - a bit like wearing a helmet... it might save you from injury - and if you don't mind wearing one, then what is the harm.
It also is a convenient place to mount one of my front lights, so that I am never without it!

A friend at college was in a minivan, full of plumbing supplies,when a driver pulled out of a sidestreet and struck his wing.
The engine was forcwed back into the bulkhead, and he was thrown out through the drivers door, as he was not wearing a seatbelt.
The pipes and gear in the back of the van flew forward - and would have struck him had he not been thrown clear.

As a result of this experience, he refused to wear a seatbelt - saying it would have caused his death had he been wearing one.
However, it is hardly a good reason NOT to wear one!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I usually wear a helmet but I am against it being made law. I should have a choice about my right to use one or not and if helmets are to protect me from other maniacs then do something about them; not me.

If I have got to go around looking like the Michelin Man in Hi Viz there is something wrong with them, not me.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

But motorcycling was always known to be a dangerous activity so that helmet compulsion would not increase the perception of danger so as to put riders off. Most of the increase in the last decade is for sports use, not for utility transport and sportsmen always revel in having to buy special gear for their activity. Moreover motor-cycle helmets do offer a high degree of protection whereas so called cycle helmets are merely polystyrene bump caps which offer little protection from anything other than minor knocks.


There used to be a view among some fishermen that being able to swim merely prolonged the agony - better to drown quickly than struggle for hours before dying. I feel that about head injuries. Rather die quickly than suffer paraplegia or PSV because of the inadequate mitigating effects of a cycle hast.


Please, please, please answer this question- one that everyone ducks. Why do you only apply that logic to cycling - powered and pedal - and not to other activities such as walking and motoring? Why don't you wear a neck brace to protect you from whiplash when motoring. Why don't you wear a flame-proof apron and gloves when cooking chips? All those things might save you from injury.

If you don't mind wearing a helmet no one wants to stop you. But a lot of people - myself included - do mind. The main plank in the medics argument is that compulsory helmet wearing would deter many people from cycling and thus deprive them of a health benefit which far outweighs the possible increased risk of injury from cycling bareheaded.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Indeed, Tone, there is a great tendency among the motoring lobby to blame the victim. It is very evident on these forums, typified by the thread about the 74 year old speed watch volunteer who was run over on the pavement: apparently it was his own fault for standing near the edge of the pavement.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

This is an arguement that I feel hard to believe - that anyone would be put off cycling IF wearing a helmet were to be compulsory!

Who in this informed age would pass up cheap travel, health benefits, and a chance to prove yourself simply because you had to wear a head covering?
Are smokers or even potential smokers put off by the health warnings on packets? Of course not!


Fishing is usually top of any list of the most dangerous jobs - and I agree that the view held is correct - but are fishermen put off going to sea because it is dangerous? Perhaps they might only fear putting to sea on cruise ships once they see all the lifebelts and life boats!!
I can just see P&O s new marketing material...
"Our Ocean Princess cruise liner has no life belts, as it is probably better to drown right away than prolong your agony in the unfortunate event of a mishap at sea. Please note that sharks can swim at up to 40 mph"


Interesting point,.
I do take precautions when walking. I keep to the pavements (safety in numbers) and wear good quality shoes so as not to stumble or cut my feet, and I try to use designated crossings, or at least find the safest place to cross. As to a helmet - I have better balance on two feet than two wheels, and am less likely to strike my head waking than I am cycling - and my speed tends to be slower too!
If I take to the hills, I wear walking BOOTS, which support my ankles, and stout clothing. I also carry spare clothing in a rucksack in case the weather turns inclement.
I take similar precautions when frying - I would not fry in traffic, or on a road with potholes without taking the precautions you suggest! Unlike many, I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen - and of course ensure that pan handles are tucked in when not in use!

The only time I have had cause to be thankful that I was wearing a helmet, was when I pulled up in front of my works to dismount, and found my shoe stuck in the toe clip on the side I intended to dismount on.
In apparent slow motion, I simply fell sideways while stationary and despite bracing my arm, shoulder and neck, struck the side of my head as I landed.
Wearing a helmet, my only injury was to my shoulder, elbow and wrist.
I am not paraplegic, but could easily have been without my (apparently inadequate) head protection.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Wait, you think substantiation is a story from Mumbai about a broken swimming pool and a poem!? Do you WANT to be taken seriously?

How is discouraging people who won't take responsibility for their own safety from conducting a dangerous activity a bad thing?

As for wearing a helmet as a pedestrian; do you have any figures for the relative number of pedestrians knocked down per foot/mile, compared to cyclists knocked off per cycle/mile? I don't, but I reckon I know which way they'll point!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Actually, I'm sure I've read that much of the increase in motorcycle registrations recently is due to commuting, not sports bike riders. Ideal in a crowded city, and exempt from the London CC


The same view was widely held amongst naval ratings in the days of Nelson.

Statistically, you are much more likely to die from drowning if you can swim than if you can't

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

This all stinks of more nauseous elf n safety. “You don’t know how to take care of yourself so we will show you the way”. Yes it’s true, many people don’t know what’s best for them but the world is becoming, has become, so sanitary it just isn’t a fun place to be.

I used to do some ridiculous cycling down hills on my old Stumpjumper which anyone would struggle to walk down, it was a controlled skid actually, and they were fun times and helped keep me fit. (Wish I knew you back then ed_m). If the nearest kids can get to that kind of experience these days is via an X-Box with motion feedback or whatever then I pity the next generation; I really do!

I know I’m taking it to the next level but it doesn’t half hit you in the face when you travel abroad and see the laissez-faire ethos. It’s like a breath of fresh air.

Typical example: I remember a friend of mine arguing with a traf pol who pulled him over about three years ago, he's known on here in fact as ict_guy, if that's okay to divulge? He'd just travelled around Europe on his motorbike, with his wife on pillion, covering hundreds and hundreds of miles.

Within no time at all getting back in this god forsaken country, heading back from London, he was pulled over because a traf pol had an issue with hs number plate. The traf nob-head even got a tape measure out while blues and twos were going off in another nearby area. As I recall, I think ict_guy told the traf pol where he's just been and what he's done, followed by something like "have your really got nothing better to do?"

Didn't matter! Sure enough, he got a £30 fine. What a t t!

More than his job's worth no doubt, or a biker hater

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Having recently bought a push-bike, and so far ridden a massive 16 miles for the first time in nearly 30 years, i can absolutely say that if i was forced to wear a helmet (or rather a pathetic polystyrene head exoskeleton) i would no longer continue cycling!!!

Big Tone is on the right wavelength - Elf 'n Safety is strangling our very lifestyles.

mb

You are probably right. I am probably biased as my main experience of motorcycles is crowds of born again bikers working hard to maintain the reputation of the Cat-Long Hill trianagle as the most dangerous roads in England; and in the process saddling us with ridiculous fifty speed limits.



Just as, statistically, you are more likely to be killed in a motorcycle accident if you are riding a motorcycle

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Then perhaps you should do the pre breakfast exercise recommended by the Red Queen. I did buy a bump cap once. That was the first downer - spending 20% of the value of the bike on a piece of polystyrene seemed a bit excessive. Then wearing it is uncomfortable - the strap chafes, it makes you sweat, it deprives you of the pleasure of the wind in your hair. And it is a blood nuisance when you arrive - carting it around the shops, trying to find somewhere to put it in a crowded pub. I was quite pleased when someone stole it.

Me and Boomer for two. Plus all those Australians who gave up cycling when they introduced compulsion


Not quite sure how narcotic use is relevant to your argument. Are you proposing a total ban on tobacco?



But you don't wear a helmet when walking despite the fact that you are just as likely to suffer a head injury as a cyclist. Why not? You don't wear a helmet when in motor cars despite the fact that you are just as likely to suffer a head injury as a cyclist. Why not? You don't wear a neck brace when driving despite the real danger of suffering whiplash if you don't. Why not? Why can't you answer these questions?



No you didn't strike the side of head. You struck the side of you helmet which is several centimetres wider than your head. Can you say with certainty that your head would have struck the ground. I often go into some local caves without a helmet and never bang my head because my organ of proprioception knows where the top of my head is. But when i go with an organised party and have to wear a helmet I am always bangin it on the roof because said organ doesn't know about the extra two inches by which my "head" has grown

I have suffered only two significant head injuries in over sixty years. One was when, at age eight, a roofer dropped a piece of slate on my head. I suffered mild concussion and need several stitches. The A&E doctor said that only the school cap which I was wearing saved me from a fractured skull. But that hasn't persuaded me that I should always wear a school cap when walking. Contrariwise the head injury I suffered when climbing in a quarry and the leader dislodges a rock did persuade me to wear a helmet when climbing on loose rock

But the bottom line is Big Ts point that it should, for adults, be an individuals own choice. And I feel the same about seat belts, motor cycle helmets, life jackets and climbing helmets. I would have less concern with making them compulsory for children: that, in fact, is the law for horse riding.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I think what’s clear is people are divided on this, which is perfectly okay in my book. So it is a personal choice and therefore why should it not remain so? It’s only YOU who are going to suffer any arguable consequences after all.

I’ve had two accidents when not wearing a helmet and on both occasions my head was not hurt, unlike the rest of my body. But if there’s one thing which I believe has saved the most important thing none of would ever want to lose it’s my eyesight. As someone who used to ride through woods and along country roads I can’t tell you the number of times a branch has caught me out or the guy I’m following has brushed past one and it’s hit me in the face. The one I remember vividly drew a nasty scratch across my cheek starting from where my specs saved the hawthorn branch from hitting my eye.

So while I can’t prove it, I think I would have lost the sight in my left eye long ago but for my spectacles whereas, to date, a helmet has not done anything for me. In fact it was this thought that dissuaded me from having corrective laser eye surgery many years ago when I could have afforded it. If there’s a piece of gear I would recommend, (not law though), it would be a good pair of protective specs if anything. They come in styles to suit every taste and don’t make you look like a nob head, unlike like every cycle helmet I’ve tried on does.

I have some specs which makes the dullest day look like summer, and makes the feel good factor go up. Out of interest, I don't recall any Tour de France rider getting killed from a head injury before helmet compulsion. Drugs yes, and some very bloody injuries including face - but not killed. So given the intensity and distance of that sport I remain unconvinced of the efficacy of helmets...

ADD: Actually, if we think of it in terms of total cycling mileage verses times a cyclist has come off and had a head injury of any significance isn’t it just paranoia? It’s on a par with speed killing I would have thought, or less of an event than that even. So are we starting to legislate for one in a million events now?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I don't recall the Tour de France riding through busy mixed-traffic either. What's your point?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

As somebody who does NOT support compulsory helmet wearing, I should not be fighting the corner for supporting wearing - but the statistics from a qualified source speak for themselves.



This study makes no mention of any influence of speeds involved - perhaps the killed cyclists were struck by somebody travelling faster than themselves - but that factor does not remove the fact that cyclists wearing helmets were more likely to survive.

Pedestrian injuries are harder to pin down - but those that deal with vehicle contact show that:


My reading of mountain rescue statistics relating to hill walkers show head injuries are VERY low in injury statistics... with ankles, legs and arms featuring the most.
Personally at 6'2", I find I can avoid hitting my head with or without a helmet, simply from early experience of too many low beams/shelves etc!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Tour de France riders get up to speeds we can only dream of, (60+ mph), in all weather conditions. I'm sure we can all recall some very severe accidents including ones we humble amateur cyclists wouldn’t generally come into contact with, like going off the side of a cliff.

So if it is such a truism that helmets save lives I wouldn't have thought it too difficult to cite cases where cyclists in the Tour de France met their end with fatal head injuries following these harrowing, and at times positively explosive, crashes. But I have yet to hear of one. I'm not saying it cannot happen, I am saying if it is a one in a million case then where do you draw the line with H&S? It sounds to me that there no such thing as too much H&S these days to the detriment of freedom, liberty and quality of life.

Add: I just read your post Ernest and at least I can now see a possible case for wearing one, but not a case for compulsion. I go back to what I have already said; if someone is killing us cyclists you should take a closer look at these 'killers'.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.