Safe Speed Forums

But your live working (which I greatly respect your skill in) does not impose a demand on ALL users to look out for safety. It imposes a great duty of care on those who can cause great damage - linesmen, signalmen, drivers, guards - but a much lower duty of care on the catering staff who's damaging potential is limited to spilling a cup of hot tea. And an almost non existent duty of care on the passengers who have almost no opportunity to cause damage.

Now using that as an analogy to road safety. Drivers are in the top category because they can cause huge harm by incorrect behaviour and lack of attention. Cyclists are in the middle category because the damage they can cause is as limited as that which can be caused by an errant tea server. And pedestrians are the passengers. They have as much chance of injuring a driver as a train passenger has of derailing the train.

Admin added - this thread has been split from here How the Dutch got their cycle paths

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

dcb - you miss/misuse the analogy .In the case I quote -all take the safety of themselves and others as being as important as their own .Prize example comes to mind .Drive through a rail access ,and sound your horn as a warning (as per HC)to pedestrians - first thing that happens is hands are raised to acknowledge ,then if possible they move aside ,waiting for vehicle to move .Anyone on a cycle woul similarly ackowledge -everyone loking out for the safetry of others( and noboy would be using a mobile unless in a safe position) .Now gfo out into the high street - spot a pedestrian near the ege of the pavement on a mobile .Soun your horn to warn it an the acknoledgement most likely would be two fingers rampant .Same with cyclists,whether or not on mobiles .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

You are only comparing the outcome of a mistake by its effect on others.

The catering operative could spill the tea on to an electrical outlet and kill themselves trying to mop it up without turning off the power first. Is the electrician/engineer in charge of the power systems responsible for this? What if they spill the tea on the driver, the train emergency brakes and a walking passenger falls and hits their head?

The passenger could stick their head out of a window and lose it. Is the driver of the oncoming train responsible for this?

A pedestrian can cause a car to try and avoid them and in doing so lead to many people being injured.

To draw a new analogy, using the roads is like carrying a gun, it may not be loaded and you may have no intention to shoot anyone, but you must always treat it with respect and never ever think it is someone else's responsibility to check it is safe.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Thank you - Toltec - some one else thinking as a road user ,with responsibilities to ALL other road users ,rather than as a cyclist ,with a loaded gun .I still maintain that road safety is the responsibility of ALL , not just just drivers .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

It is, but to varying degrees.

When I'm riding my bike through the park I'm strongly aware I have more of a responsibility than the pedestrians around me. I'm on a machine, moving faster than they are, I'm silent, and I concede they can wander around where they like and it's MY job to avoid hitting them (or their dogs who have no culpability at all).

Sail before steam basically.

Drivers are a step up from this, and lorry drivers a step up from that, and they're BIG steps considering the likely outcomes of bad driving that are involved.

This is recognised in the training levels each level of user has to undertake, and is strongly represented in strict liability laws throughout Europe, which for some reason the UK has failed to adopt.

I think that's a very sorry state to be in, that somebody sees somebody behaving badly and they extrapolate that behaviour to anybody they see.

Most carriage drivers are fantastic, courteous, considerate, clear of the responsibility they have when driving their vehicle.

Some are reprehensible, discourteous, thoughtless, dangerous (which by the nature of what they in goes hand in hand with their attitude), but I don't let the behaviour of a few irrationally affect my view of the others.

Presumably to cover situations like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... 3mb-JtQ5Vk



And which, for reasons I hope I dont have to explain, I sincerly hope we never do....

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

No doubt certain people would blame the bus driver for that.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Pedestrians can cause immense damage - to themselves.

The official government stats (table 4i, RCGB2007) states that pedestrian error (such as failed to look properly) is a contributory factor to 74% of pedestrian casualties. All those 74% can be avoided by actions of the pedestrians and not necessarily drivers; hence it is right that all parties take responsibility.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Dont forget the immense amount of damage that these "74%" (#) cause to others!

I dont wish to seem heartless but each careless pedestrian is likly to generate a traumatised driver (And his dependents) who will have to deal with both the immdiate and longer term consequences of somebody elses neglegence!


(# dont you just love official statistics! thats "74%" not 73 or 75! Its like those lovely smoooooth charts showing the relationship between BAC/Speed/shoe-size/etc and road-accidents/fatalities/etc! Its mostly Bollox isnt it! Really! )

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Nonsense.

Somebody doesn't understand strict liability!

I think I can see what Dusty is saying. The driver certainly wasn't at fault, but would have been obligated to fund the subsequent costs. Thus because of this I'm in agreement with Dusty, for reasons I hope I dont have to explain either!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Weepy - where did this gem come from . Been through tis post ( and the unanswered bits put in by others) ,and don't seem able to find it , or perhaps this is another question you may find it more convenient not to answer .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I really can't see how you can support that statement Botach.


Perhaps the correct question to ask is: would you make the driver 100% liable for that particular event? What say you, Weepej?

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Steve ,with all due apologies ,I have been through this post several times and cannot see any mention by Graball as quoted above . My question to weepy was to provide proof /quote where Graball mentioned bus drivers .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

That somebody else doesn't understand strict liability!

Perhaps you ought to explain it to us then?

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I suspect it is you who doesn't understand it.

"Strict liability" is as I have described it: always making the party liable.

Do you understand that in Europe ‘presumption of liability’ is in effect? Thus what you call for is significantly beyond what is in effect.

Until this post, the only person who has mentioned the term “strict liability” in this thread (and repeatedly), is yourself.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign