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 Post subject: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:17 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-tax.html

Much has been made of the Tax issue, but I dont really think that that is the main point he is trying to make. Far more important is his concern about the increacing numbers of "Born again cyclists" heading for the streets of London with no more training or tests of their competance than a quick flick through the owners manual.

And I think he has a point (as he does over the insurance issues)

I think there is a case for requiring would be cyclists to show that they have achieved a certain level of competence before being let loose on the sreets of busy cities. (The ability to give clear hand signals and perform shoulder checks without falling off, that sort of thing) as you do for using any other vehicle on the highway

"Born again Bikers" are considererd to be a high risk group, and that is even with training and certification, "Born again cyclists" are lethal to both themselves and those around them!

Admin, adding copy of article :
Daily Mail wrote:
'Get trained up and pay up': Taxi firm boss sparks anger of cyclists by demanding they pay road tax
By Helen Collis - PUBLISHED: 10:36, 21 April 2012 | UPDATED: 11:04, 21 April 2012

The boss of one of Britain's biggest taxi firms has angered cyclists by claiming they are 'throwing themselves' onto London roads and need to 'get trained and pay up'.
John Griffin, chairman of Addison Lee, fears more beginner cyclists will be taking to the streets this summer and he believes they should pay for the privilege - as motorists do to drive their vehicles.
Writing in his company's magazine Add Lib, Mr Griffin said: 'Green Party candidates and others are up in arms about what they see as the murder of cyclists on London Roads,' adding this summer the 'roads will be thick with bicycles'.
John Griffin, chairman of Addison Lee taxi service, fears more beginner cyclists will be taking to London's streets this summer and believes they should pay for the privilege - as motorists do to drive their vehicles.

John Griffin, chairman of Addison Lee taxi service, fears more beginner cyclists will be taking to London's streets this summer and believes they should pay for the privilege - as motorists do to drive their vehicles.
'These cyclists are throwing themselves onto some of the most congested spaces in the world,' he wrote.
'They leap onto a vehicle which offers them no protection except a padded plastic hat.
'Should a motorist fail to observe a granny wobbling to avoid a pothole or rain drain, then he is guilty of failing to anticipate that this was somebody on her maiden voyage into the abyss.
Pro-cycling: Major of London Boris Johnson has introduced measures to encourage cycling in the city including the pay-as-you-go 'Boris Bikes'

Pro-cycling: Major of London Boris Johnson has introduced measures to encourage cycling in the city including the pay-as-you-go 'Boris Bikes'
'The fact is he just didn't see her and however cautious, caring or alert he is, the influx of beginner cyclists is going to lead to an overall increase in accidents involving cyclists.
Mr Griffin said motorists undergo extensive training and pay 'extortionate amounts' in taxes to drive so cyclists should 'get trained and pay up'.

Today, writing in the Huffington Post UK, he defended his views which have prompted Facebook cycling campaigners to organise a protest on Monday outside the firm's offices.

A spokesman for the London Cycling Campaign said the 'tone' of Mr Griffin's article was clear:
'My drivers and I are safe in our metal boxes; vulnerable people like cyclists don't deserve to be on our roads; and if cyclists get hurt it's their own fault.'
The spokesman added: 'Addison Lee already has a very poor reputation among cyclists, with its drivers being frequently accused of inconsiderate or dangerous behaviour on the road.
John Griffin (pictured), chairman of Addison Lee taxi firm, has angered cyclists by claiming they are 'throwing themselves' onto London roads and need to 'get trained and pay up'
'Now it appears from the article that Griffin is prepared to deliberately infest his whole company with anti-cyclist sentiment, putting the lives of Londoners at greater risk.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1tNv233oo

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:13 
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But unfortunately, for telling a few home truths, he gets howled down and threatened with boycotts by the forces of political correctness :x

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 14:06 
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PeterE wrote:
But unfortunately, for telling a few home truths, he gets howled down and threatened with boycotts by the forces of political correctness :x

Spot on Peter .

The same politically correct brigade see the sense in CBT ,even for mopeds . How many on here have always had Moped /7.5T entitlement, but would never take either of these classes out without additional training ? It's plan common sense to get trained up .If not, perhaps we might put the boot on the other foot, and suggest that there's no need for a driving licence ,or training to learn how to control a vehicle .

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 18:15 
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Many years ago, when I started cycling, we had to obey the rules of the road and the highway code.

That is stop at junctions, no riding on pavements, no riding the wrong way along a one way street, respect other road users.

At school there were cycling classes

Now it appears this does not apply

Cyclists should be made to have third party insurance, if they want to use A and B class roads, and to get insurance most companies would require a cycling proficiency certificate

There are responsible cyclists but there are also a considerable number of very irresponsible ones

The reason for this being written about is the cyclists themselves, not any reporter


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 21:57 
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timtjf wrote:

The reason for this being written about is the cyclists themselves, not any reporter


Problem missed by a lot of the Lycra warriors ,is that we are all road users. Take a parallel ,like Northern Ireland, when both religions couldn't get on because of differences. Get rid of the differences, and all live together. Get rid of the infighting ( possibly fuelled by various factions) and Cyclists/bikers/ motorists can co exist , and look out for the safety and well being of all. It's the various factions insisting on "THEIR RIGHTS" that causes a lot of the problems and animosity . Ask me why I will block the road when a truck is trying to reverse from a street into a business. Answer, because it's the only way that I know of stopping an idiot with their "divine right" to get in the trucks blind side ,and cause a potential nasty . Similarly , when car in front is indicating left at a junction ,and cyclist comes up on inside , I'll move over to block their passage ,as it's usually obvious that cyclist has failed to spot the left indicator .

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 19:57 
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It's those cycling criminals that are to blame ...
Image

35% HAD A CRIMINAL RECORD! Car drivers, just 21%.

I do both, so would I tick both boxes? :lol: :whome: :bluelight:

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 02:07 
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botach wrote:
... Get rid of the differences, and all live together. Get rid of the infighting ( possibly fuelled by various factions) and Cyclists/bikers/ motorists can co exist , and look out for the safety and well being of all. It's the various factions insisting on "THEIR RIGHTS" that causes a lot of the problems and animosity . ...
Very valid but I see it as showing empathy, respect and courtesy to each other.
That needs to be instilled into society by encouraging the right attitudes. Rules and regulations can help as can the proportionate and appropriate enforcement of them.
When authorities allow one sector to go 'scot free' (cyclists e.g. red light jumping), but another is penalised (motor vehicles (mostly), e.g. Speed cameras / parking fines) this helps to cause and encourage segregation and discontent.
Helping all road users to be very aware of each others needs, and help everyone to appreciation how to deal with them properly and appropriately.

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 03:34 
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timtjf wrote:
Many years ago, when I started cycling, we had to obey the rules of the road and the highway code.


Er, you still do today.

timtjf wrote:
That is stop at junctions,


eh?

Maybe junctions with a stop line, but these are few and far between, and I'm not even sure they apply to non motorised vehicles to be honest, I suspect not.

timtjf wrote:
no riding on pavements,


What, even shared use ones?

timtjf wrote:
no riding the wrong way along a one way street,


Illegal.

timtjf wrote:
respect other road users.


A lot do, probably similar proportions of other vehicle drivers/riders.

timtjf wrote:
At school there were cycling classes


Yup, just like today, lookup "bikeability".

timtjf wrote:
Now it appears this does not apply


Horrific generalisation

timtjf wrote:
Cyclists should be made to have third party insurance, if they want to use A and B class roads, and to get insurance most companies would require a cycling proficiency certificate


Why why why why why? What would this achieve other than the discourage cycling, is this your aim?

And for the record most do, as part of their third party liability insurance that comes with their house insurance.

timtjf wrote:
There are responsible human beings but there are also a considerable number of very irresponsible ones


Fixed that for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 03:45 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
When authorities allow one sector to go 'scot free' (cyclists e.g. red light jumping)



Plenty here to demonstrate that this is not the case.

http://www.ralphsmyth.me.uk/citycyclist ... pdown.html


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:29 
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Why is it that any initiative to improve standards and safety on the roads that cyclists don't like gets hysterically decried as "discouraging cycling"?

If people won't cycle because they are prevented from doing so badly or dangerously then these are exactly the sort of people who we actively do want to discourage from cycling!

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 14:20 
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X2 Robin ; I agree.

My only concern has only ever been the slippery slope.. Advisory free course becomes compulsory; the small nominal fee just to cover the training cost session in a town far away becomes a bigger fee with no justification of why it’s now £30 a year up from the nominal fee, (after people have forgotten what is was originally for and about).

Then you need a refresher course each year. Then you need a licence, a registration plate and compulsory lights which meet a certain specification for which the likes of Cateye make a recommended set for ‘just’ £60 and of course you need to be seen to be safe so a compulsory Hi-Vz etc. etc. I know I may seem OTT but there are plenty of examples of the slippery slope, so I hope I don’t have to justify my concerns. :wink:

Then people I know, like myself for instance, who want to get their old cronk out and responsibly ride down to the Slug and Lettuce on a sunny afternoon becomes all this 'STUFF' and I think f :censored: k it! Other people then just do it illegally because they also think the same. In fact the reason for many illegal activities isn't always because they are pround to be rouges but precisely because of the bull s :censored: t suffocating on reams of legislation and imposing their will upon the masses just because they can with no forethought about rights and freedoms.

The common element here which I keep banging on about, and appears to be the biggest problem every time, is the person.

Generalisations are often generally wrong or paint a very biased picture based on few personal experiences compared to the majority of good users because we don’t tend to notice or just ignore the good ones. Because of our own experiences and preconceived opinions, every time a nut does what you believe they all do, that reaffirms what you ‘know to be true’ about them. So when I hear ‘bikers are all this’, taxi drivers are all that” and cyclists are ‘all maniacs’ etc. I worry what it’s all leading to.

I sometimes think it’s a mind disorder associated with being outdoors because in my experience even the worst driver or cyclist I have had the displeasure of being a passenger with in a car will act very differently in-house at work.. i.e. Keeping the door open for someone, not barging your way through to beat the guy coming the other way. Even if you have the slightest nudge with someone which wouldn’t hurt a fly both parties invariably say sorry. You hear things like “after you” and nothing is too much trouble, until you get beyond the front door that is!

How and where does this politeness and consideration go in the big bad world? To my mind the biggest favour we could do for ourselves, and difference to road safety good use, is to change and educate us as human beings and curb our carless, inconsiderate and selfish attitude; our actual means of transport has very little to do with things. An idiot on the road is still going to be an idiot whether they happen to be walking, cycling or driving. I don’t see how their attitude is going to change just because they took the bicycle instead, but oh don’t we just love to label them all as a complete utter nutter type based on what they are using that particular day...

Well, that’s my rant for the day :soapbox:

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 16:03 
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BT wrote:
An idiot on the road is still going to be an idiot whether they happen to be walking, cycling or driving. I don’t see how their attitude is going to change just because they took the bicycle instead,

I also think that the leopard does not change its spots easily as behaviour is deep set in our characters. However, an individual, when driving their car, will generally always stop at red lights, not drive on the pavement, and observe the rules of the road to the benefit of safety for all road users. The same individual, when on their bicycle, will ride through reds with impunity, go the wrong way up one way streets, be a general menace and so on.

Why this change in behaviour? Easy, there is no numberplate/identification to use to track them down and thus little risk of a penalty. That's why I am in favour of compulsory registration, training and licensing of cyclists. If it puts a few people off cycling then so be it. (not Captain Picard :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 16:28 
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malcolmw wrote:
Why this change in behaviour? Easy, there is no numberplate/identification to use to track them down and thus little risk of a penalty. That's why I am in favour of compulsory registration, training and licensing of cyclists. If it puts a few people off cycling then so be it. (not Captain Picard :) )


hmmmmm i'm ambivolent on this one cos people are dicks in all sorts of scenarios transport based or not.... but that why? is a bit of a leap.

why this change in behaviour ?
they probably see little additional risk to self, little inconvenience to other road/pavement users, a (relatively) significant benefit to self in terms of energy & time saved and yes little chance of enforcement or proper policing these days.

(and thus inadvertantly drawn a paralell with exceeding the speed limit)


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 16:53 
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...


Last edited by weepej on Sun May 13, 2012 17:00, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 17:00 
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malcolmw wrote:
will generally always stop at red lights,


Observe any junction, and while people in motorised vehicles would rarely go though the light if it's red when they approach it, pretty much the last two vehicles through the lights have come through on the red, and often in quite an irresponsible way (i.e. they put their foot down to catch the light and carried on).


malcolmw wrote:
not drive on the pavement,


Hmmm...

There's a bit of pavement near me, and it's advantageous to mount it where the road backs up, the kerb is low and many many drivers take the option to go two wheels up on the pavement to cut the queue that builds to their right.


malcolmw wrote:

and [motorised vehicle drivers] observe the rules of the road to the benefit of safety for all road users.

I'm still laughing at this ridiculously partisan generalisation weeks later.


malcolmw wrote:
That's why I am in favour of compulsory registration, training and licensing of cyclists. If it puts a few people off cycling then so be it. (not Captain Picard :) )
[/quote]

Every single country that has had some form of registration for cycling has ditched it, Vancouver recently looked into it and discounted it as an expensive waste of time, in the main because it discourages the very thing cities want to encourage, i.e. cycling.

malcolmw wrote:
That's why I am in favour of compulsory registration, training and licensing of cyclists.


Utterly ridiculous.

All cyclists for instance? Even two year olds?


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 17:06 
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botach wrote:
I'll move over to block their passage ,as it's usually obvious that cyclist has failed to spot the left indicator .



Hmm, again, I suggested once taking primary position on a cycle through places where the road narrows to negate the possibility of people behind squeezing past me at speed; result pages and pages of nit picking and ad hominin. You say you block the progress of other roads users, not a squit!


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 19:26 
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weepej wrote:
botach wrote:
I'll move over to block their passage ,as it's usually obvious that cyclist has failed to spot the left indicator .



Hmm, again, I suggested once taking primary position on a cycle through places where the road narrows to negate the possibility of people behind squeezing past me at speed; result pages and pages of nit picking and ad hominin. You say you block the progress of other roads users, not a squit!


Once again ,Ill ignore the nit picking. Perhaps I should differentiate between the joy bikers and cyclists. Regular occurrence at certain traffic lights is to see the joy boys on & off the pavement to gain a foot or two .One junction where it's a regular occurrence has a left hand lane that's left turn only.They still try to gain on the inside ,despite all traffic turning left . So to remove a problem of one of them getting in the gap to my left I hog the kerb .If they want to pass inside,then it's on to the pavement and back on the road ,in front of me, where I'll give them some room,but at least I can see them,and if they decide to go straight on, they're not inside me .Clear now ,or do we need some photos.
I'll always give a cyclist ( or even a joy boy) in front of me the respect I'd demand if positions are reversed . I,possibly go too far, as I won't pass someone two wheels ,unless
1) I can do it with ample space between us
2) so that I can leave ample space in front of him before I pull back in .

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 21:49 
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weepej wrote:
...pretty much the last two vehicles through the lights have come through on the red...


Rubbish.

Quote:
...and many many drivers take the option to go two wheels up on the pavement


"Many many" huh. Just a few, more like.

Quote:
I'm still laughing at this ridiculously partisan generalisation weeks later.


Laugh away. I don't care what you think or do.

Quote:
...it discourages the very thing cities want to encourage, i.e. cycling.

and
Quote:
All cyclists for instance? Even two year olds?

You misunderstand. I DO want to reduce cycling especially for young children who certainly should not be on the road. The recent publicity about encouraging cycling is all posturing by politicians to appear "good" and "right on".

Look at it this way, the Chinese used to use bikes but now all want cars. This is progress. Why would we want to go backwards?

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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 22:53 
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malcolmw wrote:
Look at it this way, the Chinese used to use bikes but now all want cars. This is progress. Why would we want to go backwards?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Suffice to say London cycling is pretty much the preserve of the well paid professional these days, some of these bikes are £3,000 and up, I don't think they think they're going backwards!


10,000 people on bikes here, including children:

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/10-000-brave ... revolution

Amsterdam here we come, despite people with attitudes like yours (holland used to have cycle registration, but scrapped it BTW, as it did with it's car culture)!


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 Post subject: Re: Addison Lee!
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 08:30 
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weepej wrote:
Amsterdam here we come...

From personal observation, there seems to be a fundamental difference between cycling in Holland and in the U.K. (and I don't mean the lack of hills).

In the U.K, the stereotypical cyclist is Lycra clad, rides an expensive bike (you mentioned £3,000), wants to act like a racer, pedals head down and has an aggressive attitude. In Holland, most people seem to have "sit-up-and-beg" bikes, cruise around at reasonable speeds and have time to look where they are going. If our cyclists were like this then maybe the antipathy towards them would die away.

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