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 Post subject: Superb Letter in CW
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:10 
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This letter by Peter Ward - Life president of Ribble CRC and author of King of Sports has written this in CW.

Common sense and he reinforces everything posted by me on this site and stuff posted up by Kriss in the past. :wink:

Peter Ward in Cycling Wekly Letters page wrote:

Time To Brighten Up

Every week we read about deaths and other tragic accidents in CW. It is very uipsetting for cuycling friends - but what about the dependent familiies? It is very difficult to ask, at distressing times, how many of these were wearing a helmet or were in dark clothing? Cyclists are more vulnerable in winter.


:yesyes: :clap: Well said mate!

Peter Ward in CW wrote:


I am appalled by this irresponsible and dangerous fashion trend by cycle clothing manufacturers, which war worn by thoughtless cyclists This is of black, grey and dark blue tops. Tops with bright frons often have dark backs; also gilets with black mesh on the back masking a brighter top


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I really could not have said it better. Go for it mate! :clap:

As aside - Kriss bought some really nice gear from her homeland last year. Have some photos of her modelling her gear. She certainly showed in my dipped lights and looked elegant :wink: and stylishly original



Peter Ward in CW wrote:


A recent ;arege advert even in CW was headed "Are You Ready For Winter"? and showed a dark clad rider, hidden against a gloomy background. There were reflective strips on his clothes - barely visible to another road user. What message was this sending out to cyclists or was it a very bad joke?


Ooh Peter! Say what you think. They did not publish my letter on this same topic - but my letter was much more "acid" :shock: :lol: :wink:


Peter Ward in CW wrote:

Are these darkly clad riders so ignorant of the fact that riders in brighter clothes are given a much wider gap by passing vehicles?


Peter - I dare you to post your letter on any cycling forum apart from this one! :wink: But you are right.

Peter Ward in CW wrote:

Can they not see for themselves that, night or day, that riders can be seen much further away than in dark clothing?


Nope - because the Grauniad had some non cyling numpty telling them some dingbat academic in some obscure and second rate "new" university did some "research which was "accredited on the internet" All that means is the bloke posted his thesis. :wink:

Peter Ward in CW wrote:

Often otherwise well designed clothing is only available in dark colours. I believe these manufacturers should be liable in the event of an accident as no alternative is offered.


Peter - Kriss bought a range of really nice gear in various colours for all of us last year - in Zurich and Munich when on hols. Agree though - there should be more choice to encourage.

Peter Ward in CW wrote:

So I appeal to all riders who think fashion is cooler than safety to [i] use a bit more brain power Think about your nearest and dearest if, through your own thoughtlessness you become an accident victim.


If like many fit cyclists you have tunnel training vision and no dependents, beware of being injured for a long time or worse never able ride a race again because a driver just did not see you in the dark


Oooh Peter - you been talking to the Swiss :lol: :lol: But again - we have to be SEEN and part of the extended look backs are making ourselves appear bigger. We have to be seen to negotiate our quarter with a driver as well.


Peter Ward in CW wrote:

Those who do not live in the real world and argue that the driver's are mostly to blame, not the invisible cyclist, I take your point. But as it's the cyclist and his famiily who suffer, common sense and not unreliable justice must take precedence



A top rant :clap: :bow:

Guy is one to take note of as well - he wrote "King of Sports" and really knows his cycling stuff. :wink:

How strange though that he more or less quotes us! You lurker you! :twisted: :lol: 8-)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 15:01 
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Sorry IG, I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't agree with the implication behind the quoted letter, i.e. that a cyclist is at fault for not wearing appropriate clothing.

I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

There's also quite a few issues with the Helmet debate too. The majority of evidence both ways is anecdotal and lets be realistic here, my helmet is tested up to 12mph. I cycle at around 18mph, cars overtake me at 30+mph, my helmet is going to be useless in 95% of accidents, it does keep my head warm in this weather though!

But hey, it's all down to personal opinion in the end. If I'm cycling around with my (ineffective) helmet on, lit up like a christmas tree, yet wearing dark clothes and get knocked down, I'm not going to blame myself. I don't believe any amount of hi-viz is going to prevent it happening, it's not the universal panacea Peter Ward makes out... ...unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 16:00 
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IG - ist naughty to post naughty letter like the above - but :rotfl: ist acid at times. You need some Milk of Magnesia afte that post :wink:



Peyote wrote:
Sorry IG, I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't agree with the implication behind the quoted letter, i.e. that a cyclist is at fault for not wearing appropriate clothing.


But we live in area where there ist no streeet lighting Liebchen und if you ride here - in dark - you need to be seen. Und we use toppest lights on our bikes too but I am still going to wear one of my nice fleece lined und very stylish high viz waterproof jacket to be seen.

Quote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark,


It gives me a good easy view from longest distance if dipped light pick out the strips in more time. It mean I see you und have longer to plan ahead rather than bear down und appear tardy in reaction from your point of view.

Quote:
if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!


But this ist silly talk. A car has two dipped lights und two side lights und even an amber reflector on sides und two rear lights, bright brake lights und even bright fog lamp as required. Ist also wider

Am slim. Am 5' 10 " (Kriss ist 6 foot dead ;)) und we are both taking size 10 -12 dress sizes - so we are thus slim, but v-v-voluptuous with it ;) - und all naturally endowed. ;) But given am on narrow bike und slim build - ist not exactly going to make me stand out - so ist why some of the glance back fuller twist ist designed to make cyclist look bit larger to driver. So being dressed appropriate ist a part of this. In snowy weather I tend to wear either my navy or the racing green number - but both have the cutest of slimmest fluorescent stripe running through the fabric. In dark - it give subtlest of viz to person behind me. I buy this one in fashion sport shop in Paris but think they are on web but need to check label in wardrobe.

Have a pale green number, and emerald green number und an aqua-blue number und a deepest purple number with narrow lilac pin stripe which ist also fluorescent - und also palest blue number und a lurid red affair. I have skorts und shorts und leggings to mix und match too. These were purchased by Kriss for me last year in Zurich, Luzern und Genf und Andreas brough me back a very stylish black und yellow number which he think suit my "waspish" streak :hehe:

So ist possible to look elegant und seriously sporty und not all like a "Christmas tree" Und I certainly get the second glances on my bike - but I do also wear fishnet tights when wearing the Skorts und the Shorties :rotfl: Ist my shapely legs which start from my hips .. they stop traffic! :hehe:


Quote:
There's also quite a few issues with the Helmet debate too. The majority of evidence both ways is anecdotal and lets be realistic here, my helmet is tested up to 12mph. I cycle at around 18mph, cars overtake me at 30+mph, my helmet is going to be useless in 95% of accidents, it does keep my head warm in this weather though!


It keep my hair dry too und warm as well. You lose most of your body heat through head. I wear another woolly hat under my helmet as well. But every little help und you do not know how thin a skull ist. Some of us have denser bone than others und withstand more of a crunch und others sadly fracture too easily

Quote:
But hey, it's all down to personal opinion in the end. If I'm cycling around with my (ineffective) helmet on, lit up like a christmas tree, yet wearing dark clothes and get knocked down, I'm not going to blame myself. I don't believe any amount of hi-viz is going to prevent it happening, it's not the universal panacea Peter Ward makes out... ...unfortunately.


It all help keep you visible und if you are seen und ride prominently but not aggressively within traffic flow - cycling ist going to be lot safer.

We are very safety conscious und safety led in all our activities. Ist drummed into us to treat mountains with respect und take car of safety on slope - it filter to rest of Swiss culture.

IG ist BiB - he attack from BiB point of view - he ist always full of common sense all the time....und his acid lecture ... you do not forget what he say to you. He went off on one at me over high jinx in wheelchair.

Ist long story - eldest kittens were toddlers und they toddled off. I was frantic mama und hurlted after them in the wheelchair (was during the recovery) on the pavement I blame the dog - its lead was fixed to my chair und he pulled me along ;) :roll: :shock: But he gave me biggest acid rollicking over it when he heard about it. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 16:18 
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Peyote wrote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

it doesn't help you being in the right if you're dead.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 16:39 
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johnsher wrote:
Peyote wrote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

it doesn't help you being in the right if you're dead.



But ist he really in the right? As stated in the thread on the motorbike - on motorbike und in car (und also on pushbike) - have responsiblity to be aware of other road users und not collide with them. But equally - have responsibility to make sure if am the more vulnerable road user to make sure people know what I am doing, are aware I am there und this means dressing appropriately in the dark und according to the weather. Und basically being careful und trying not to place self in danger.

Ist philosphy which serve well - the incidents involving my family were freak occurrences - Kismet ruled on those occasions. :( :cry:

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UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
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Fine me for Safe Speed
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Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 17:53 
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WildCat wrote:
But ist he really in the right?

well I don't think so, but he does and it seems your 'friends' over at cw agree.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 18:53 
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johnsher wrote:
Peyote wrote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

it doesn't help you being in the right if you're dead.


Too true.

But like I said if I'm not seen with the amount of lights and refelective tags I've got on, no amount of hi-viz will save me. So even choice in clothing won't help in all situations!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 18:57 
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WildCat wrote:
johnsher wrote:
Peyote wrote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

it doesn't help you being in the right if you're dead.



But ist he really in the right? As stated in the thread on the motorbike - on motorbike und in car (und also on pushbike) - have responsiblity to be aware of other road users und not collide with them. But equally - have responsibility to make sure if am the more vulnerable road user to make sure people know what I am doing, are aware I am there und this means dressing appropriately in the dark und according to the weather. Und basically being careful und trying not to place self in danger.

Ist philosphy which serve well - the incidents involving my family were freak occurrences - Kismet ruled on those occasions. :( :cry:


I'd agree with the responsibility of each road user to make other road users as aware of your intentions as possible, but there comes a point where you pass from the sensible to the ridiculous, I refer you to my earlier point about day-glo cars!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 00:47 
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Peyote wrote:
WildCat wrote:
johnsher wrote:
Peyote wrote:
I'm not going to wear hi-viz bodysuits just because drivers (and any other road user for that matter!) can't pick out my lights and reflectors in the dark, if you transpose the argument to motor vehicles it's like saying that everyone should drive around in a fluorescent car, in addition to the their lights and reflectors!

it doesn't help you being in the right if you're dead.



But ist he really in the right? As stated in the thread on the motorbike - on motorbike und in car (und also on pushbike) - have responsiblity to be aware of other road users und not collide with them. But equally - have responsibility to make sure if am the more vulnerable road user to make sure people know what I am doing, are aware I am there und this means dressing appropriately in the dark und according to the weather. Und basically being careful und trying not to place self in danger.

Ist philosphy which serve well - the incidents involving my family were freak occurrences - Kismet ruled on those occasions. :( :cry:


I'd agree with the responsibility of each road user to make other road users as aware of your intentions as possible, but there comes a point where you pass from the sensible to the ridiculous, I refer you to my earlier point about day-glo cars!


:lol: Wildy lived for a short time in GDR. They very generously allowed her a car - a pastel blue Trabi. Wildy's reaction

"Miaow! - they trty to do me in Liebchen - Verdammtes Dng hat no gears of traction! When she reminsices over this experience - lot of slides into
German - most of it bannable if in English :lol:

Think one of her best lines on radarfalle once was that Trabant needed to paint the :censored: things in day-glo to warn people these death traps were on the road. :lol: :twisted: Currently we are babysitting a lurid pink one in our garage for the eldest cousin - he collects horrors and this vehicle just has to be the ultimate in car nasties. Not kidding - despite 10 people working on each area of this car - naffness surpasses British Leyland at the height of Red Robbo's reign. No matter what day of the the week the Trabi was always a "Monday morning/Friday afternoon "roll off the production line type car.

No reliable stats exist for old GDR - they'd never have admitted to any imperfections anyway :roll:

But back to IG's OP. Chap's letter naturally makes perfect sense to me. Like Wildy - do not dream of putting myself of my family in any danger and we try to instil responsibility and respectful behaviour in our kids.

As Wildy :neko: pointed out - cars are bigger than cyclists - and drivers are required by law to have all lights working and lit up at night to nesure that driver can see and others see him. Metallic paint and light colours are still easier to see than black and dark cars - and ours are metallic jobs and think their metallic effect shines through in other folks' headlights in addition to their own lights.

As cyclist - wear my helmet and wear clothing appropriate to the weather condition. I prefer cycling leggings and occasionally tracksuit bottoms as I like to be comfy and warm. As for my top - I wear according to weather and visibility. Are times in bright sunshine when black or dark are high viz :wink: but in dark conditions - then go for something which can be seen from a good distance. I enjoy my life and wish to keep it!

Foggy or snowy conditions - my orange/greeny-yellow tops tend to be yanked out of the cupbard if I am daft enough to go for a ride in those conditions. But then this would be weekend as my commute is way too far on a bike and think I rather have a toes up in the warm with my wife when it's freezing outside :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 13:01 
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This letter is the STAR letter this week in CW 8-) 8-) 8-)

There is hope! 8-)

CW did some interesting winter gear reviews and yes – I have a pair of Assos tights :wink: – mine are – :shock: OK so I bought the bright yellow pair and a bright blue pair – and it cost me a fortune! But needed some new tights! And they are warm!

My three year Gore-tex in electric blue and neon now matches – wears well. As does my Altura bright fluorescent yellow And I wear a bright fleece jacket as well on a really cold day! I agree that the Cannonade Le Jersey is a nice warm jersey but they only make in a colour, which makes a grey speed camera stand out in the fog! :roll: :roll: :roll:

But in the light of two letters in the finest Cycling mag on market – focuses on the all-important – SPEED MATTERS!

– Remember where you heard this first! Copy Cats! :lol: :lol: :twisted:

Ben Green of Manchester in CW wrote:

As much as I enjoy your reviews, including last week’s winter gear reviews, you constantly fail to emphasise the importance of high visibility clothing, You made a very small mention in October’s “commuter training article” Good lights are essential in the dark, but during twilight. Or on a dull day. It’s fluorescent clothing, which makes all the difference!

As anyone one who drives a car (almost all of us) will know, a cyclist wearing a fluorescent yellow top is far more visible than anyone wearing anything else



:bighand: :drink: :bow:

Ben G in CW wrote:
I always wear my trusty Altura fluorescent yellow windproof whether going to the shops, commuting to work or on a training ride.


What I like to read :bow: :clap:

Ben G in CW wrote:

But even now it’s nearing winter, I constantly see (or don’t see as is often the case whether in car or on bike) other riders wearing black or dark clothing while out training. The problem is that too many of the top cycling brands stick to plain colours such as red, blue and black as evident in the clothing reviews.


:yesyes: :roll:

Ben Gin CW wrote:
I think many cycling clubs are image conscious and prefer to wear their expensive Assos tops rather than a “geeky” fluorescent yellow anorak! I often feel like the odd one out when out training.


I'd rather look a geek and live than be the trendiest coprse in the mortuary! Join aclub which has many BiB members mate - we are used to wearing fluorescent anoraks as kit!

Personally - I go for practical rather than fashion - In fact trendy is like a uniform - anoraks like me are now original and stand out from the crowd and we leave 'em standing as we actually know how to ride a bike! :wink:

Ben G in CW wrote:
Obviously – if in the ideal world drivers drive cars safely and at a sensible speed – we “would not have to be so careful” – but that is not the reality we are faced with is it!


:roll: Oooh tingue in cheek there! Do I detect a soupcon of sarcasm! :lol:


Ben G in CW wrote:
Any investment in safety clothing is worth the money no matter how unfashionable It may appear.


Well said :clap: :bow:

[quote="Ben G in CW"
Also I like to think that if drivers see cyclists more easily -(and let’s face it – some need all the help they can get – they may get used to fact that lot of us do commute by bike after all!

Too many drivers claim they don’t see us. Don’t give them the satisfaction of being proved right! Make sure you seen this winter![/quote]


A realist! :bow:

How refreshing - two letters in consecutive weeks in CW - and they agree with is! There's light at the end of the tunnel.



Of course - Nove 5th carried letter of some plank urging more Critical Mush and "taking over the roads", another claimed drivers deliberately tr to murder cyclists - - in issue last summer - so they do print the duds as well! But think this is show some "balance" and highligh nutcase element as real cyclists tend to write in hammering these planks! :lol:

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In Gear wrote:
This letter is the STAR letter this week in CW 8-) 8-) 8-)

There is hope! 8-)

CW did some interesting winter gear reviews and yes – I have a pair of Assos tights :wink: – mine are – :shock: OK so I bought the bright yellow pair and a bright blue pair – and it cost me a fortune! But needed some new tights! And they are warm!


:rotfl: You must post up a photo ... yellow tights :rotfl: with your lurid green top :rotfl:

Agree they are warm - but I chickened out of encasing my legs in the yellow ones - afraid I went for the black and wear the yellow fluorescent up top!

Another good letter though. Won the prize of a Blackburn Air Tower 4 Track Pump as well! :wink: Hmmm! They never publish my letters .... damn! :( :roll:

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In Gear wrote:
another claimed drivers deliberately tr to murder cyclists

some do - I've had several people either swerve hard left at me (no oncoming traffic), pull across and brake test me or deliberately drive straight at me on those dodgy "you have priority" one-way at a time bits of roads.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that these people have no idea of the consequences of a collision?
All have been reported to the police who, as I've said many times before, don't give a !£%!£%) - it would apparently infringe on these peoples human rights to do anything about it.


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Sorry Guys, I'll start wearing Hi-Viz when all the cars do the same!

In the meantime I'll spend my money on (more) lights and LEDs and comfortable, dark coloured clothing that allows me to go down the Pub without being laughed at (too much!).


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Peyote wrote:
Sorry Guys, I'll start wearing Hi-Viz when all the cars do the same!

In the meantime I'll spend my money on (more) lights and LEDs and comfortable, dark coloured clothing that allows me to go down the Pub without being laughed at (too much!).


Ach Liebchen - my car has the metallic paint - it gleams :lol:

But why sit in dark clothing. Light colours get you noticed und I have pulled a bloke in my trendy "LOUD" attire before now (:shhh: do not tell Mad Doc Ooop :oops: :boxedin: :yikes: I just did! :boxedin: :stirthepot:... of course ist my lacy topped fishnet stocking...

Und in any case - yellow hide the stain of the egg nog! und the fondue... which ist best bit of the "apres cyclisme :wink: :wink: "

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UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
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WildCat wrote:

<snip>Ach Liebchen - my car has the metallic paint - it gleams :lol: <snip>



Ah, we're moving onto reflective material rather than Hi-viz then? :wink:

In that case I have no qualms about donning such apparel! :lol:


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This appeared in this week's CW

Quote:

BRIGHTEN UP


I NEVER thought I would say this – but when I were a lad - 27 hour :? non-stop shifts :? :? were the norm – with a four hour ride :? each way to and from work on top – often in deep snow. :violin:



Eeeh! Don't know I'm born then - have easy life ...working fingers to bone... :roll: :roll: :roll: ... sitting in a traffic jam .... :roll: listening to the radio .... :roll:


Why do I have a vision of Monty Python "When I were a lad ... we were as poor as ..." sketch :hehe: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Quote:
During the hours of darkness we wore donkey jackets or combat jackets – all dark colours.


:yikes:

Bill in CW - now I think with a touch of a sarcastic tongue in cheek wrote:
With the advances over the years in reflective clothing – how little things have changed when riders choose to wear the same by choice and not necessity of war years. – two rear lights would be help but they still choose non-reflective dark clothing.

Let’s face it – these days – the more conspicuous you are –the more it gives some dumb motorist something to aim at. But then again – many simply pull out, overtake sensibly in good time and simply save your life!

(Bill of Huddersfield}

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 01:05 
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:clap: :bow: In this week's CW - F Harrison writes

Quote:

This letter is about safety. Many cyclists - especially racing wannabes - predominantly wear dark clothes of similar difficult to see garments.

This is a very hazardous occupation, cycling in winter when it's dark.

Many riders are ostriches when it comes to safety


:clap: :bow: :clap: :bow:

So - not alone then :lol: :shock: :wink: Nor are those darned Swiss cheeses :P

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A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 01:25 
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This also appeared it the same edition this week

C B in CW wrote:


Last Tuesday night as a qualified first aider :bow: I spent a very anxius 15 minites kneeling in the gutter beisdee a downed cyclist :( hoping that an ambulance would come befroe wh passed out as Inot want to rollw her over given the bump on her head was swelling like a golf ball. :cry:

Thankfully the ambulance arrived before I had to do anything drastic.

Now this young woman had not done herself any favours in terms of lighting, high visibility clothing or how she was carrying her shoppin g :banghead:


Hmm! Seen this mentioned before :scratchchin: :wink: :boxedin: Tame :neko:s :hehe: :wink:

Quote:

But remember the real message is: think about a lump the size of a golf ball and PLEASE remember to wear your lid



Decent advice - and same advice as given by the Swiss cheeses as well. Oh ..Crumps - now they'll be accused of writing every letter in CW next :wink: :wink: :wink:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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