Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Thu Apr 02, 2020 07:18

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 17:12 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
Yet another case of victim blaming. Just like the girl that was run down by the truck a few weeks back, this one apparently jumped off her bike in front of a bus...
why did she do that? Well because she was wearing flip flops of course. I mean it wouldn't be because the bus hit her, would it? No, that would be too bloody logical.


Times Online

Quote:
Chatting bus driver ran over cyclist
by David Sanderson
An inquest is told that a student was killed by a single decker being driven too close and too fast
AN OXFORD University student cycling to classes was killed by a bus whose driver was chatting to a colleague and driving too fast, an inquest was told yesterday.

Emilie Harris, 20, was crushed under the wheels of the single decker bus after she was knocked off her mountain bike two years ago in Oxford city centre.

Ms Harris, a first-year student of human sciences at St Catherine’s College, died instantly.

The inquest was told that the driver, Paul Willis, 47, was chatting to colleague Henry Stuart who was standing on a platform at the front of the bus seconds before the student was killed.

Richard Whittington, the assistant deputy coroner for Oxford, said that Mr Willis had broken drivers’ regulations by having someone on the platform at the front of the bus.

Police Constable Stephen Moffat, who investigated the incident, said Mr Willis had been travelling too fast and too close to Emilie.

He said that although the bus had been travelling at under 25mph at the time of the incident, he should have been doing the same speed as Emilie’s cycle, which was believed to have been travelling at 8mph.

“He had not given himself any margin for error,” he said. “I think he should have been travelling at the same speed as Emilie. He should have weighed up what was ahead of him.”

Witnesses told the inquest how they had heard a “thud” shortly before the bus ran over her body.

CCTV images taken from the bus showed Emilie cycling in front of the bus two seconds before she was run over.

Emilie, who was wearing a crash helmet, was wearing flip-flops on the day of the incident in May 2004, which may have contributed to her falling off the bike, the inquest was told.

Recording a verdict of accidental death Dr Whittington said that having his colleague on the platform next to him must have been a distraction to the driver.

But he added: “Whether Mr Stuart [his colleague] actually obstructed the vision forwards is unlikely but his presence there must have been a distraction.”

“There is no question of Emilie’s death being caused by dangerous driving, this is sadly an accident.

“For some reason she had lost control of her bike. It has been suggested her flip-flops could have been the reason, or she panicked because she heard the sound of the bus or she might have looked back. I do not think the bike was in an upright position at the time of the accident.”

A spokesman for the Oxford Bus Company said after the inquest: “Ever since the tragic accident our thoughts have been with Emilie’s parents and family. They continue to have our deepest sympathy. We cannot comment further at this stage as a court case involving the driver is still active and until that is finished our own inquiry into the incident and any possible disciplinary action can not be concluded.”

Police said after the inquest that court proceedings against Mr Willis would now resume.

He is charged with careless driving and breaching public service vehicle regulations. His colleague who was on the bus at the time, Henry Stuart, faces the latter charge.

Emilie’s parents Martin and Judy Harris, both 52 and from Shawford, Hampshire, attended the inquest but made no comment afterwards.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 17:24 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
johnsher wrote:
Yet another case of victim blaming. Just like the girl that was run down by the truck a few weeks back, this one apparently jumped off her bike in front of a bus...
why did she do that? Well because she was wearing flip flops of course. I mean it wouldn't be because the bus hit her, would it? No, that would be too bloody logical.


That's not the way I read it. They are saying the the bus driver was careless and allowed no room for error, but the crash was precipitated by the young lady falling off her bike.

I can't find anything wrong with that. That's life. That's how accidents happen. Mistakes from both sides.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 17:35 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
SafeSpeed wrote:
but the crash was precipitated by the young lady falling off her bike.

and there's the problem. It's far more likely that the bus knocked her down than any of these:

Quote:
It has been suggested her flip-flops could have been the reason, or she panicked because she heard the sound of the bus or she might have looked back.


all of which are nothing more than an attempt to excuse highly dangerous driving. Cyclists are clearly nothing more than 3rd class citizens on the road. This sort of behaviour is indulged in by countless motorists every day and is always waved away as either 'a tragic accident' or 'the cyclists fault'. It's not. They're knowingly driving too damn close because they're too impatient to wait a few seconds to get past.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 18:00 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
but the crash was precipitated by the young lady falling off her bike.

and there's the problem. It's far more likely that the bus knocked her down than any of these:

Quote:
It has been suggested her flip-flops could have been the reason, or she panicked because she heard the sound of the bus or she might have looked back.


all of which are nothing more than an attempt to excuse highly dangerous driving. Cyclists are clearly nothing more than 3rd class citizens on the road. This sort of behaviour is indulged in by countless motorists every day and is always waved away as either 'a tragic accident' or 'the cyclists fault'. It's not. They're knowingly driving too damn close because they're too impatient to wait a few seconds to get past.


But John, It also says this:

Quote:
“For some reason she had lost control of her bike. It has been suggested her flip-flops could have been the reason, or she panicked because she heard the sound of the bus or she might have looked back. I do not think the bike was in an upright position at the time of the accident.”

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 18:29 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
SafeSpeed wrote:
But John, It also says this:

I realise that, that's the bit I quoted. Either they know or they don't. If they don't know - which is clearly the case otherwise they would have said so - then why raise it?
Even if we ignore the victim blaming going on, I still want to know why they think it's ok to excuse this sort of premeditated dangerous driving?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 18:33 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 15:14
Posts: 420
Location: Aberdeenshire
johnsher,

I think it must be remembered that this was a tragic accident.

There appears to be absolutely no evidence that the bus simply rammed the cyclist.

If a cyclist falls off their bike for whatever reason, they really ought to feel exceptionally grateful that a vehicle misses them, rather than expect to be missed.

This is where I feel the thinking is backwards. Cyclists feel victimised. I don't know why personally. I always give cyclists a wide berth basically because I don't trust them. Sure there are some who know how to ride but similarly there are plenty who are blatant idiots with no appreciation of their vulnerability. To try to spare their lives for them, and to avoid damage to my own car I treat all cyclists as idiots. If they prove themselves to be responsible then excellent - it's a wider safety margin.

I do think that cyclists really ought to expect to worst should they come off their bike though. If a grazed knee is the worst of their injuries then they've been lucky.

In the case above I really doubt that the bus rammed the girl. If it had, the article would have stated that. She screwed up, and the bus driver hadn't left a big enough safety margin for her.

As Paul said. Mistakes both sides. Tragic though it is, but no-one lives forever, and this is just another accident.

For the record I don't think chatting to a colleague really constitutes murderous driving. Do you mean to tell me you never talk whilst driving? Or am I dangerous too? :o

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 18:42 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
jamie_duff wrote:
If a cyclist falls off their bike for whatever reason, they really ought to feel exceptionally grateful that a vehicle misses them, rather than expect to be missed.


:shock: :shock: :shock: are you sure you're in the right place with that attitude?

jamie_duff wrote:
For the record I don't think chatting to a colleague really constitutes murderous driving. Do you mean to tell me you never talk whilst driving? Or am I dangerous too? :o


I wasn't referring to the talking and you clearly haven't read your highway code lately. What's dangerous is not leaving enough space when OVERTAKING a cyclist. It is the overtaker's responsibility to ensure that they do so in a safe manner. Passing within millimetres of a cyclist, horse or even another car is not safe. It is dangerous and it is certainly premeditated when it comes to cyclists.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 22:07 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
But John, It also says this:

I realise that, that's the bit I quoted. Either they know or they don't. If they don't know - which is clearly the case otherwise they would have said so - then why raise it?
Even if we ignore the victim blaming going on, I still want to know why they think it's ok to excuse this sort of premeditated dangerous driving?


John

Can I ask you a question here?

Would you wear flip flops when riding your bike?

I recall Mad Doc raising the issues over driving a car whilst wearing these. I think I posted that we would regard it as "not being in control" if we pulled and found the driver wearing these.. :roll:

{Ee..- when I were a lad - you wore them at the swimmming pool only - and I think they cost a florin in Woolies. They were certainly not used to walk, drive or ride bikes .. beach and pool only - and where they belong - in my opinion.)

The sad awful and painful truth is - we know it could be very possible that a catch in the pedals or a the shoe slipping on her foot could have caused a loss of control on her part. How far this contributed to the accident - well that will really be for the court to decide when hearing the case against the driver and when considering what punishment to hand down.

He is still to face a careless charge anyway because he did not keep a distance behind and appeared to have failed to notice her.


You ask why raise the fact she was wearing these shoes?

Well - perhaps to try to get across the dangers of driving and riding whilst wearing this inappropriate footwear? It can cause an "off" - and we cannot really deny this - can we?

Perhaps also so that people are not prejudging the driver prior to the case being heard - because we do not know the evidence against him or even if she had fallen prior to the bus hitting her from this report - and some of this will be sub judice at this stage because he has not been tried yet.

Even if she had fallen prior to the bus hitting her and not fallen because the bus hit her - he could still be found guilty of careless just the same on the basis that she was two seconds ahead - 8 mph and he's closing in at 25 mph - and he should have kept the two seconds behind in any case unitl he had the space for a safe and good clearance overtake.

Where it could make a difference is in the outcome - the sentence - and really does depend on the quality of the evidence which the CPS will place before the court and his lawyer's negotiation for the best outcome for his client - and - yes - he may well make a case over the wisdom of wearing flip flops in the bargaining for the lowest denomination punishment - if it can be proven by the forensics that this could have partially contributed to the tragedy.

Maybe mentioning the flip flops could be forewarning that this factor will be examined in the court case. It has to be so - to arrive at the right decision - all factors - however painful for the each party to hear - must be heard - and the coroner is not hearing the evidence to convict - merely establishing the circumstances to arrive at his verdict of "accidental".

The court case will then decide how far the carelessness on the part of the driver contributed to this death.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 22:33 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
In Gear wrote:
Would you wear flip flops when riding your bike?

not now because I don't even own a pair of flip flops, never mind that I have look pedals, but when I was a kid I used to wear them all the time and never had a slip because of them.

In Gear wrote:
Maybe mentioning the flip flops could be forewarning that this factor will be examined in the court case.

it's victim blaming pure and simple, just like blaming the girl wearing the ipod rather than the truck driver who ran her down.
She was doing a whopping 8mph, you're not likely to suddenly fall over at that speed whatever you're wearing


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 23:24 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
johnsher wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Would you wear flip flops when riding your bike?

not now because I don't even own a pair of flip flops, never mind that I have look pedals, but when I was a kid I used to wear them all the time and never had a slip because of them.

In Gear wrote:
Maybe mentioning the flip flops could be forewarning that this factor will be examined in the court case.

it's victim blaming pure and simple, just like blaming the girl wearing the ipod rather than the truck driver who ran her down.
She was doing a whopping 8mph, you're not likely to suddenly fall over at that speed whatever you're wearing


Oh _ I don't know John ... at any speed - if a flip flop slip off her foot or caught in her pedal - she could still fall at even 8 mph. Admit - we have not had any flip flop cyclists involved in crunches around here. I would hope our cyclists and drivers are more sensible around here anyway. :wink:

But we do not know how "seasoned" a cyclist she was.either (and I do not mean this in any disrespect to the girl either ) .. given she was wearing flip flops...I cannot see a cycling "addict"... I mean we like and love the gear ...

I think she was perhaps a fashion conscious girl who perhaps did not realise the danger or may even have been like the driver who only "goes up the road and thinks he does not need his seat belt" - so she did not bother changing her shoes for a short ride to the local corner shop.

I do not see it as blaming her for wearing these shoes - but rather that it may have compromised her overall handling and controls to some extent The driver did not aim the bus at her...but he should have remained behind her. The test for the court is how far did his drive fall below the standard expected of the averagely competent driver... and per the forensics - (and there will be evidence from the bike, the bus, the bus's own video footage, and the girl's injuries) to put before the court to get at the truth here.

However, as a father - I do feel for the parents very much. However, I also know from professional experience just how traumatic this is for the normal person who - through some really - really - stupid mistake - causes an accident with such terrible consequence.... and as a fair society - we have to give him his chance for justice. allow some compassion, and take all evidence into account.

I am also mindful that all involved - in a situation like this one - will live a life sentence of "if only and what if"... :cry: - whatever the court decides...

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 23:58 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
In Gear wrote:
But we do not know how "seasoned" a cyclist she was.either (and I do not mean this in any disrespect to the girl either ) .. given she was wearing flip flops...

a lot of women's footwear resembles flip flops...
I can't see how you'd get them caught in the pedals while riding. When starting off yes, but once moving it's not as though you normally take your feet off the pedals.


In Gear wrote:
The driver did not aim the bus at her

you don't actually know that. I've had a number of people drive past me so close I've had to swerve to avoid their mirrors hitting me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 00:26 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
johnsher wrote:
In Gear wrote:
But we do not know how "seasoned" a cyclist she was.either (and I do not mean this in any disrespect to the girl either ) .. given she was wearing flip flops...

a lot of women's footwear resembles flip flops...
I can't see how you'd get them caught in the pedals while riding. When starting off yes, but once moving it's not as though you normally take your feet off the pedals.



But they do not all wear them when they ride bikes. :shock: Most girls I see are wearing proper cycling shoes or trainers.

Perhaps Durham lasses are just more sensible.. a northern thng .. :wink:

Flip flops are flip flops. Just a rubber strap which fits by your big toe. These are not stable or supportive shoes and we would fine driver and cyclist alike if copped wearig these on journeys around here.

Quote:

In Gear wrote:
The driver did not aim the bus at her

you don't actually know that. I've had a number of people drive past me so close I've had to swerve to avoid their mirrors hitting me.


But you do not know that he did either.. and most bus drivers - as a general rule of thumb - are not in the habit of aiming their buses at cars, cyclists or people. They do want to keep their jobs... on the whole .... :wink:

I try to avoid such crass behaviour on the part of numpties by adopting a "seriously" primary position. If in a danger zone - make it impossible to overtake :wink: whenever you can

As for mirrors - they do seem to be bigger and remind me of 70;s designs when they stuck out. - and I think they protrude far more than I think they should. IUn fact - I do not think they add much to a car's "looks" either. :roll: I think the previous more "tailored" design was much better, neater and safer. :wink:

Drove behind a lorry today .. perfect. He kept back - cyclist was in good placed - "text book" - primary - and he then moved to a lay-by to allow the traffic to pass as soon as he could - and gave a friendly wave to us all.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: unbelievable
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 02:12 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 15:20
Posts: 37
Location: London NW10, UK
In Gear wrote:


However, I also know from professional experience just how traumatic
this is for the normal person who - through some really - really - stupid
mistake - causes an accident with such terrible consequence.... and as a
fair society - we have to give him his chance for justice. allow some
compassion, and take all evidence into account.

I am also mindful that all involved - in a situation like this one - will live
a life sentence of "if only and what if"... :cry: - whatever the court
decides...



Yes, that is true, and I know that has always been the attitude of British
policemen, and they are the better for that. But it has to be put in
perspective.

There's someone dead here, and the two busmen are facing minor
charges which seem appropriate in the circumstances. The allegations
are that the fatality was substantially the result of negligence on the part
of those two people: the bus-driver and the work-colleague he was
chatting to.

What infuriates me is that, because it's a road death, the Health &
Safety Executive won't be investigating the bus company, and checking
out the firm's procedures for safety, training etc. in the way that would
have happened If this death had happened elsewhere: in a workshop or
on a building site or the railways.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 02:20 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 13:01
Posts: 472
I'm with johnsher on this one.

It is the easiest way to kill someone in this country and 'get away' with it. Perhaps if we took road deaths more seriously there would be fewer of them.

I wonder if the coroner has cycled in the last 30 years. Somehow I doubt it.

Oh, and I've had some fantastic bus drivers, and one last year that I had to report for overtaking me with about 4 inches to spare. It is f**king frightening and completely unnecessary. There is a minority of drivers out there that have no consideration for other road users and frankly, a small fine is an outrageous penalty.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 15:29 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
B cyclist wrote:
I'm with johnsher on this one.

It is the easiest way to kill someone in this country and 'get away' with it. Perhaps if we took road deaths more seriously there would be fewer of them.


Been addressed in the new Bill..

For record - entire family signed petitions led by the Day and Saunders families in the past - and there is to be a new charge to cover. At present - can only do a "death bt careless" if the person was drunk or drugged and refuses to give a sample"

Quote:
I wonder if the coroner has cycled in the last 30 years. Somehow I doubt it.


Perhaps - but you have to be aware that some just do not like riding bikes

Quote:
Oh, and I've had some fantastic bus drivers, and one last year that I had to report for overtaking me with about 4 inches to spare. It is f**king frightening and completely unnecessary. There is a minority of drivers out there that have no consideration for other road users and frankly, a small fine is an outrageous penalty.



True - and why cams don't really cop them. :wink:

B - I admit - my lads and lasses cannot be everywhere. None of us have that kind of " human resource" But by patrolling and larking "intelligently" around 8-) - we stand more chance of copping these people "at it" :wink:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 23:21 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 18:42
Posts: 1283
Location: Essex
Dowlais: "What infuriates me is that, because it's a road death, the Health & Safety Executive won't be investigating the bus company, and checking out the firm's procedures for safety, training etc. in the way that would have happened If this death had happened elsewhere: in a workshop or on a building site or the railways."

Unfortunately, this has been a traditional grey area, the HSE haven't investigated this type of accidnet as they haven't the expertise or resources and have felt that the DfT and police should be dealing with this, The DfT and Police (read ACPO) have felt that this is the remit of the HSE and as such nought has happened, The HSE did start to grasp the nettle and get involved with occupational driving but have since been told by the DfT 'Hands Off' and a lot of the funding that they had for this has been withdrawn, overall the HSE is experiencing budget cuts.

Whilst a government department it is not popular within governemnt and has been subjected to a variety of 'audits' to see how wastefull they are expect said audits have proven that as a department they are actually quite efficient, in one case considerably more efficient than the organisation auditing them.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.532s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]