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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:07 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
It was said a couple of years ago (can't remember by whom) that because motorcyclists have crash helmets and leathers on, they therefore feel more protected and thus will take more risks. All the bikers I know think this is twaddle.


But if you invert the question you will frequently get a different answer:

Would you be extra careful if forced to ride your bike in swimwear?

Or more subtle:

If forced to ride your bike in swimwear would you picture the consequences of crashes more frequently?


bad analogy paul !

i frequently have to ride in swimwear... :o

not that it provides much less protection than the usual cycling lycra.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:10 
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BottyBurp wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
But if you invert the question you will frequently get a different answer:

Would you be extra careful if forced to ride your bike in swimwear?

Or more subtle:

If forced to ride your bike in swimwear would you picture the consequences of crashes more frequently?
I've been thinking about your question and in all honesty, no I don't think I would ride any differently, apart from I wouldn't be getting my knee down! :D


But if you have to 'think about it' then that's surely recognition that your subconscious is attempting to manage the variation. And that's a good thing - an essential part of risk management.

And even the joke has a definite smell of 'true words, spoken in jest'.

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:15 
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ed_m wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
It was said a couple of years ago (can't remember by whom) that because motorcyclists have crash helmets and leathers on, they therefore feel more protected and thus will take more risks. All the bikers I know think this is twaddle.


But if you invert the question you will frequently get a different answer:

Would you be extra careful if forced to ride your bike in swimwear?

Or more subtle:

If forced to ride your bike in swimwear would you picture the consequences of crashes more frequently?


bad analogy paul !

i frequently have to ride in swimwear... :o

not that it provides much less protection than the usual cycling lycra.


Ah yes. Sliding down the road at 70mph on your arse must be a constant worry for cyclists. :hehe:

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:39 
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:46 
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FJSRiDER wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Would you be extra careful if forced to ride your bike in swimwear?
I've been thinking about your question and in all honesty, no I don't think I would ride any differently, apart from I wouldn't be getting my knee down!

Well, exactly.

Go for a 30 mile ride on roads you know in leathers, gloves and a full face helmet and time yourself (keeping to the speed limits of course :wink: ). Then do it again in just jeans and a denim jacket, no gloves, trainers and an open-face helmet.

Do you really think you ride exactly the same?
Apart from getting my knee down, yes.

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 13:51 
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 14:47 
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Think back to days as a kid - if you wore short trousers on a bike - gravel rash was a good incentive to be a bit more carefull. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 16:57 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Ah yes. Sliding down the road at 70mph on your arse must be a constant worry for cyclists. :hehe:


silly me.. i must have accidentally slipped into the motorcycling forum by mistake :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 17:08 
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Paul, I agree with you.

Anyway - if a helmet compulsionist had said that yes, they wish to reduce the number of head injuries, my reply would be to ask them why they are not concentrating on the areas where most head injuries occur - in car occupants and pedestrians.

Why are they singling out one particular group, that makes up a tiny portion of head injuries?

I'll wear a helmet all the time when all car occupants do, all pedestrian near roads do and all people over 75 do. That way I'll know that my group isn't being treated unfairly. :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 17:17 
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B cyclist wrote:
Paul, I agree with you.


I can't say if cycle helmets are good or bad. I expect that they are good. However, risk compensation is a very believable and rational hypothesis which would be likely to offset any benefits.

But we have no idea which of these effects (and others too) would be the greater. Until we do it would be highly irresponsible to call for helmet compulsion.

However, many things in road safety are similar and if we are too cautious we miss the opportunity to save lives So yes, as the thread title implies, it is indeed a thorny issue.

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 18:15 
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The big difference between bike safety and any other road safety is that merely riding a bike improves health. This is often left out of the equation, and obviously helps people down the compulsion route.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 19:18 
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B cyclist wrote:
The big difference between bike safety and any other road safety is that merely riding a bike improves health. This is often left out of the equation, and obviously helps people down the compulsion route.


Haven't we been here before? I don't even think that can be proved. The big confounder is that very healthy people are FAR more likely to choose to cycle than very unfit people.

So is it that healthy people cycle? Or cycling makes people healthy?

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 20:38 
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B cyclist wrote:
The big difference between bike safety and any other road safety is that merely riding a bike improves health. This is often left out of the equation, and obviously helps people down the compulsion route.


Yep....that looks healthy.... :shock:

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 20:39 
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Well, I know a lot of people that used to cycle, then got things like jobs, mortgages and kids, then got fat and unfit and unhealthy.

They now cycle, are thinner, fitter and are far more unlikely to develop diabetes, heart disease, have strokes, more likely to stop smoking.

See, I got my personal anecdote in there, which, of course, must be taken into account. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 20:40 
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Gizmo wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
The big difference between bike safety and any other road safety is that merely riding a bike improves health. This is often left out of the equation, and obviously helps people down the compulsion route.


Yep....that looks healthy.... :shock:

Image


That guy is good on Photoshop, but not that good.


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 20:55 
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I am anti-compulsion of any kind, that includes helmets, seat belts etc. I have had a slagging match with another biker who considered me mad not to wear a motorcycle helmet whilst he puffed away on his rolled-up fag.

It really p*sses me off when people use the argument that we must ALL be fit and healthy so as not to be a burden on the health service. I don't drink and I don't smoke, so that rules out two of the top killers. As far as the rest, well I will take my chances. Its my life and no one is going to tell me how to live it.

I admit that I was probably at my fittest when I used to cycle the 12 miles to work and back when I was 16. Then I bought my first car at 17 and never rode again.

There are plenty of other ways to keep fit. I do not EVER see me riding a cycle again, that’s my choice. It is not my aim in life to be the fittest guy in the street

If cycling is your thing then great, I am pleased for you but woe betide any one who stands in judgement over my lifestyle because of their own self proclaimed righteousness, and cyclists can be some of the worst offenders in this area.

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:47 
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B cyclist wrote:
Anyway - if a helmet compulsionist had said that yes, they wish to reduce the number of head injuries, my reply would be to ask them why they are not concentrating on the areas where most head injuries occur - in car occupants and pedestrians.

Why are they singling out one particular group, that makes up a tiny portion of head injuries?

I'll wear a helmet all the time when all car occupants do, all pedestrian near roads do and all people over 75 do. That way I'll know that my group isn't being treated unfairly. :D :D :D


Good points. Like I said earlier in this thread, I wear a helmet all the time. Having had a nasty off involving some tramlines (all my own stupid fault) I'm quite pleased about that. I don't know if the helmet was responsible for me falling off or not, and frankly I don't care - the point was it was there and it helped.
I'm not a "helmet compulsionist" though, far from it. My girlfriend doesn't like them and it's no big deal for us to go riding together, me helmeted and her not. How hard is it to reconcile the statements "helmets are good" and "compulsion is bad"? And I know the academic evidence that helmets are good is far from conclusive; I just like them based on my own experience.


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 13:12 
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You stay very fit when you are running after kids. Youngest are playing some kind of game involving wearing the vegetable colanders and our pet cat's hiding.. :lol:

I do suggest to patients to try riding within reason. They prefer to use the spinners at the gym and there is swimming, aquafit, yoga and pilates which some find more to their taste and lifestyle. It's a matter of personal taste and choice As Gizmo says - some just do not want to - especially with unpredictable weather.

I ride because I happen to enjoy it. I would not ride a bike to work. Too far and in any case - I sometimes need to travel to other hospitals within the Trust and the one where my private patients are located. I thus need to ensure their notes are transported securely with me.

I use a helmet because I like to keep my head dry when it rains up here. And like my wife - I don't like insects in my hair.

As for the argument about seatbelts causing "recklessness" - does not wash really because all drivers these days are taught to drive wearing one - and pass the test wearing one. Thus they have known nothing different so I cannot see how this would create "reckless risk" given they have never experienced driving without one in reality.

As for the argument that wearing a helmet makes one take more risks... well if it becomes compulsory for kids - then it becomes a second nature to them and providing they are taught to ride safely per Cycle Craft and the National Standard from the start - then safety led behaviour may kick in to the psyche.

I do not think I take any risks when out on my bike on my own. I think I watch out for other road users same as I do in the car. :wink:

I usually have our youngest attached in the trailer as well - so hardly likely to take any chances when out with my kids who COME FIRST with me.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 06:08 
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Could'nt help this... :lol:

Quote:
I am anti-compulsion of any kind, that includes helmets, seat belts etc. I have had a slagging match with another biker who considered me mad not to wear a motorcycle helmet whilst he puffed away on his rolled-up fag.

I think you are BOTH nutcases! :lol:

In BOTH cases, you are accepting a degree of risk. You are also condemning somebody else to clean up after your untimely deaths, should they occur. Meaning, do family men/women take less risks than single men and women?
I know I do - but then age and experience come into it.

When I was 16, a friend of the family - a keen rock climber - went motorcycling in France with no helmet.
He got knocked off by a careless motorist, and had much of his hair and scalp ripped off as he slid along the road.
The result was he had brain injury, and lost the ability to climb, and required constant medication and care from his increasingly elderly parents.
His mother actually asked "Why could'nt he have worn a helmet -he wore one when climbing"

I ALWAYS wore a helmet once I got a motorcycle.
I'm not sure how I would have felt about compulsion then, but if people fail to look after themselves, compulsion is usually the accepted means of protecting them from themselves?

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 08:20 
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So, Ernest, helmets for car occupants?

It would stop way more brain injuries than helmets for cyclists.


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