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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 08:44 
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B cyclist wrote:
So, Ernest, helmets for car occupants?

It would stop way more brain injuries than helmets for cyclists.


I bet it wouldn't per helmet.

What's the proper metric?

[I write this because I know as if by instinct that the suggestion is a stupid one, despite the gloss of reasonableness. And I quite understand that it's offered 'tongue in cheek' - but understanding the proper metric is actually very interesting. I haven't taken the time to sort it out in my own head yet.]

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 09:57 
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It all depends on whether you wish to stop head injuries, or not.

If you do, then you should make pedestrians and car occupants wear them first, as this is where the majority of A&E attendances for head injury come from.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:36 
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FJSRiDER wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Apart from getting my knee down, yes.

So go and try it.
I have in the past. I don't ride any differently. Maybe I'm unique? If I come off my bike wearing full leathers or nothing, it's still going to hurt, but maybe not quite as much with proper protection. More to the point, my beloved Blackbird will be damaged!

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:26 
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B cyclist wrote:
It all depends on whether you wish to stop head injuries, or not.


No. It depends on the proper assessment of the cost benefit ratio of the intervention (where costs and benefits include social and long term factors as well as direct financial costs).

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:11 
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Tentatively joining the thread, prepared for the flames:

I dunno about you guys but I fear for my car/bike much more than for my body :hehe:
(the first thing a real cyclist will say after a crash: “is my bike ok?”)

Wearing a helmet doesn’t change my riding style, instead my anticipated ride defines whether I want to wear a helmet. If I’m doing scary off-roading then I’ll happily wear a helmet; if pottering around then I won’t bother. This goes some way to supporting the idea of “risk compensation” in this instance.

To say “a cyclist wearing a helmet would be more experienced” is absolute rubbish. It could be a newbie who doesn’t yet appreciate the risks involved and won’t chance it.

I personally appreciate the principle that lack of seatbelt use could encourage greater caution but only to a point. When younger, I was given a lift by someone who had bought himself a ‘classic’ car, meaning it had no seatbelts. I was s**ting myself but he thought nothing of it and it clearly didn’t temper his driving style - I never rode with him again. However, for me that was a one off, for him it was already normal; he had become complacent. Long term complacency is a significant factor, resulting with the extra risk being forgotten and eventually no-longer being factored into the decision making process. There’s no way anyone could convince me that driver wasn’t statistically at more risk of becoming a statistic.

I admit it - I have done the occasional (very very short) trip without the seatbelt and yes it did make me more aware of my personal safety, but I believe I would eventually forget about it and revert back to my usual driving attitude if I decided to go permanently without.

“Maintaining a level of risk you are comfortable with” (risk compensation) is absolute rubbish when applied to seatbelt usage. I control a machine that could so instantly and easily become a lethal weapon, lethal to others as well as myself. I have a social conscience, this means I respect other road users (pedestrians, cyclists, drivers). When I’m behind the wheel I’m acutely aware that I pose at least as much risk to others than I do to myself. I absolutely do not want to be the reason why their family, friends, relatives to lose a loved one; I can live with injuring/killing myself but not others (no pun intended). Lack of use of my seatbelt does not reduce the risk to others, hence I don’t accept my driving style will depend significantly on seatbelt use. I believe this will apply to the majority of drivers.

That Risk Homeostasis theory doesn’t address long term complacency; it also doesn’t properly address cause and effect when drawing individual conclusions “So is it that healthy people cycle? Or cycling makes people healthy?”{PS}; it can’t say with confidence that seatbelts are ineffective, it also doesn’t account for other factors such as the subsequent reduction of driver skill and trafpol because of the rise of other forms of enforcement.


Conclusion: to say that XXX is not effective because YYY didn’t occur/abate is useless because, like so many other studies, the factors in question are considered in isolation while overlooking subtle yet critical factors' like time – just like RTTM (time dependent) and ‘bias on selection’ when considering speed camera effectiveness.

Either way I’m ‘anti-compulsion’ but for ‘informed decision’


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:31 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
It all depends on whether you wish to stop head injuries, or not.


No. It depends on the proper assessment of the cost benefit ratio of the intervention (where costs and benefits include social and long term factors as well as direct financial costs).


Well, it starts with the premise that you wish to reduce head injuries.

Then the tea leaf readers, twig diviners, professors of statistics, accountants, H&S gurus, single issue shouting groups etc. get involved and the end result is something gets imposed that the people with the power think/are led to believe is right.

Of course, it is right, if the tea leaves say so.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 14:09 
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B cyclist wrote:
See, I got my personal anecdote in there, which, of course, must be taken into account. :wink:

hmm, story of my life as well...


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 18:30 
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Just a thought...if, in the phrase "helmet compulsion", you replace the word "compulsion" with "education" or "encouragement", or something else a bit less authoritarian, does it change the minds of those of you who don't wear helmets?
How many of the non - helmet wearers on here wear those snazzy sunglasses when on their bikes? It's funny how the helmet issue is such an emotive one: I never wear eye protection of any sort, but if I'd started a thread on here to that effect, you can bet it wouldn't have run to seven pages or got quite so heated.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 20:18 
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Rhythm Thief wrote:
Just a thought...if, in the phrase "helmet compulsion", you replace the word "compulsion" with "education" or "encouragement", or something else a bit less authoritarian, does it change the minds of those of you who don't wear helmets?


I wear a helmet - ist normal to me anyway.

Have always used a seatbelt too.

If rallying - or on track - wear helmet, padded suit und a harness belt.

If on motorbike - wear a helmet

If ski-ing - wear a helmet ....it protect against elements as well as fall.

If speed skating (und was in Uni team as student und only just not fast enough to make national team by cat's whisker :roll: - I wore a helmet. If you tripped - at that speed .. not nice.. )

If playing ice hockey :twisted: :evil: - full padding und helmet ... that puck (und at school we once used the custard as provided by English cook in our school - it was hard und lumpy enough :roll: und her rock cakes were lethal weapons too :shock: ) - we wore helmets und padding - lots of padding because of playing with those rock cakes :hehe:

OK so we used the combination of the custard und the rock cakes. She never did improve much though. :roll:

RT wrote:
How many of the non - helmet wearers on here wear those snazzy sunglasses when on their bikes? It's funny how the helmet issue is such an emotive one: I never wear eye protection of any sort, but if I'd started a thread on here to that effect, you can bet it wouldn't have run to seven pages or got quite so heated.


Nasty insect flew into my eye once. I've worn a snazzy pair of specs ever since.

As for "health" - I do practise Yoga und Pilates daily. I swim most mornings und have one aquafit session per week.

I ride within reason und last year managed to get up to a 25 mile ride without feeling too much strain. I have to be careful und not overdo because of what happened .. my poor ribs were fractured und broken - it left me with a more shallow breath capacity than previously. :roll:

Perhaps I recover well enough though because of my enthusiasm for alpine sports before this happen. I was fairly fit und athletic und I still like to try to keep as fit as I can. :wink:

But I do not take chances...

I ride und drive to COAST und perhaps as Ern say - family life ist a steadying influence as well. We place higher value on our children's lives than our own as I guess ist a basic primeval human instinct to protect our babies.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 20:25 
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Rhythm Thief wrote:
I never wear eye protection of any sort


Now that is just outrageous!

I am, this minute, composing an email to my MP about eyewear compulsion!


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 21:10 
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B cyclist wrote:
Now that is just outrageous!


That's me! :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 22:52 
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Rhythm Thief wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
Now that is just outrageous!


That's me! :wink:


I guess it depends on what you are doing at the time! 8-)

It could well give the impression that whatever it was could be dangerous, and discourage others from attempting it!!
Or they might well think you were experienced, and not give you such a wide berth as you deserve!! :D :juggle: :whip:

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 20:20 
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If SA three speeds are still the same , might i suggest that blokes either get rid of the crossbar or wear between leg protection ( as in cricket) due to neutral section between High and second , usualy found when placing weight on pedals in standing position. :lol: :o

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:20 
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botach wrote:
If SA three speeds are still the same , might i suggest that blokes either get rid of the crossbar or wear between leg protection ( as in cricket) due to neutral section between High and second , usualy found when placing weight on pedals in standing position. :lol: :o


That takes me back a bit...cheers for reviving those painful memories botach :cry: :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:57 
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Forgot to say - usualy due to poor adjustment - once experienced - the adjustment wass usaualy done a bit more precise next time. :roll:

(And yes my eyes still water at the memory)

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 00:36 
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I almost gave this a thread of it's own - but it seems to belong here.

CW reported a rather nasty incident which occurred on the Lancs Fells on April 30.

FOUR cyclsts were seriously injured when a motorbike hit them head on.

62 year old Graham Jones (former Tour de France rider and pal to one of the Swiss) lost two fingers which were later re-attached throuhg micro-surgery and another - Peter Hindle broke his left hand in two places and needed stitches to his face nose. The third suffered a broken pelvis.

Pete Hindle was flown by air amublance to Preston and the rest - including the motorcyclist were taken to Lancaster.

The accident occurred in the village of Ellel on a B road between Quenrmore and Scorton. The road is a bit like our Teasdale area in that it reminds bikers of the TT circuit and .. :roll: :cry:

Accidnet occurred at 11.30 am on 30 April. The motorcylist came over the brow of the hill , lost control on the bend (in which Hindle says there is a dip - and skidded into the oncoming cyclists.


Now this is the reason why I placed this here instead of awarding it a separate discussion thread as to the lessons to learn from the biker's mistakes


Peter Hindle - member of Cleveleys RC and a first category rider wrote:

He hit the dip - lost it on the bend and he lost control., It was canage.. he came straight though out group. We were lucky not to be killed my helmet saved me - I am convinced of that.


Perhaps. Hindle was wearing a full helmet.

Hindle was thrown some 10 metres in this crash and one of the bikes was flung 30 metres into a field.



This is the second crash Hindle has been unlucky enough to have been involved with in the Lancs Hills. Last autumn he and his friend were riding inthe Trouhg of Bowland when a sheep ran into them. Sadly - his friend died as a result of this collsion. :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 01:48 
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In Gear wrote:
Peter Hindle - member of Cleveleys RC and a first category rider wrote:

He hit the dip - lost it on the bend and he lost control., It was canage.. he came straight though out group. We were lucky not to be killed my helmet saved me - I am convinced of that.


Perhaps. Hindle was wearing a full helmet.


As you say, perhaps. It's a bit too easy to assume, a bit too easy to say, and a bit too hard to prove.

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 07:04 
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 09:30 
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FJSRiDER wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Last autumn he and his friend were riding inthe Trouhg of Bowland when a sheep ran into them. Sadly - his friend died as a result of this collsion.

Was his friend wearing a helmet?


If he was, I'm sure there will be a reason why it should be discounted from the discussion.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:21 
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I rather think his pal would have been in full kit since they were both riders with Cleveleys RC.

Peter, if this is the same guy I think I rode with once on an inter-club event, wears a full helmet - full cover. I have no idea if they are any "stronger" as never really looked at them closely. Style does not appeal to me.



[off the topic thread - comment on way the mag reported the last bit]

I am a bit baffled though as to why the CW article wrote that the sheep ran into the cyclists though. I live in the Cumbria - sheep have right of way on the Fells and are the real stewards of our landscape. They have priority over all other road users - they were there first! How can the mag blame the poor sheep for this? It was a very tragic accident and no one person or animal was to blame.

[/end off topic aside comment on style of reporting]



Did the helmet save him? I think after a smash like that and just looking at what happened - he'd probably think so. Why IG made - I think - a "perhaps" comment as he's seen umpteen of this sort of smash over the years.

You see - some of you are lucky enough not to have had such trauma - so you can only speculate on effect. Those that have will look at the carnage and think - "yep - that's why I'm stilll here" as they try to make sense of it all.

I can say this - because for quite some time after that our bad incident, Wildy was against compulsory seat belts as removing hers "saved her". Nope - what saved Wildy was a very quick use of her brain in assessing what was coming and just making a snap plan to survive it as best she could.

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