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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 02:21 
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While in Scotland this weekend, I encountered a situation, which might have proved costly to the cyclists concerned, which made me wonder if 3rd party insurance would be wise for cyclists?

The situation was this:
I was approaching a T-Junction from a narrow lane, with a busy 30 mph main road.
The lane was about 1.5 vehicle widths wide, so I was travelling at about 10-15 mph, approximately 40 feet from the junction, when 5 cyclists, with panniers front and rear, swept into the lane at about 25 mph, two abreast.
My presence was obviously a total surprise, and two broke left, two broke right, and one wobbled in the middle and tried to stop - which given the wet conditions looked only just possible.
I was certain for a second, that one of them was going to collide with me, as I braked hard to a halt - uncertain which way to turn to avoid them.
With all the panniers, the prospect of damage to my vehicle seemed an expensive possibility. Luckily for all concerned, they managed to miss me, and each other, and passed down BOTH sides of my vehicle!

Had a collision occured, which one would be most liable for the damage? the one who struck, or the ones on the wrong side of the road, who prevented ME from avoiding a collision, and allowing them all to pass by on the right of my vehicle? :?:

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:09 
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1) most cyclists do have insurance - through the CTC, home insurance or similar.

2) having insurance doesn't make people better cyclists. You just have to look at the standard of a lot of drivers to see this.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 11:47 
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B cyclist wrote:
1) most cyclists do have insurance - through the CTC, home insurance or similar.

2) having insurance doesn't make people better cyclists. You just have to look at the standard of a lot of drivers to see this.


Most I think insure their decent bikes. I do doubt if a £99 one from supermarket gets insured. :roll:

But if you are insured third party - it mean damage you do to something ist at least fixed und you fix your own bike!

House insurance does not really pay out for damage to properties of high value und we not just talking cars but if the riders collide with each other too .. some of these bikes can cost thousands of pounds as we know.

Und if you are insured - you do not want to cause mishap as this cost higher premiums und ist messy with a lot of form filling too. :wink:

But ist training und constant attention und evaluation of skill development which improve everyone - nicht? :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 11:57 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Had a collision occured, which one would be most liable for the damage?

just how much damage do you think 2kg of bike is going to do? I'd be more concerned about having to pick bits of cyclists brains off my car.

You didn't say, but unless there was a very steep hill just before your junction, the chances of a group of cyclists with pannier clad bikes coming around a corner at 25mph is about zero. Actually, the chances of any group of any bikes coming around a 90 degree corner at 25mph is about zero.
That aside, don't you wish other road users would learn to look where they are going?


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 13:06 
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johnsher wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
Had a collision occured, which one would be most liable for the damage?

just how much damage do you think 2kg of bike is going to do? I'd be more concerned about having to pick bits of cyclists brains off my car.

You didn't say, but unless there was a very steep hill just before your junction, the chances of a group of cyclists with pannier clad bikes coming around a corner at 25mph is about zero. Actually, the chances of any group of any bikes coming around a 90 degree corner at 25mph is about zero.
That aside, don't you wish other road users would learn to look where they are going?

They came from the left - which had only a slight incline, so had the advantage of a wide sweep in - and clearly did not expect to find anyone in the lane for whatever reason.
Actually if you had seen the paniers, I expect you could understand why they were not inclined to lose any momentum :lol:
My main thought is that recently, we have had a spate of vandalised cars in Kendal, with scratches down the paintwork costing up to £500 to put right. :oops:
When I was still at school, I carelessley rode into a parked car, and smashed a bumper mounted Raydot Fog light which cost £12 to replace. It was a lot of money then, so my parents had to fork out! :oops:

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 13:28 
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johnsher wrote:
just how much damage do you think 2kg of bike is going to do?


2kg? <boggle> You're kidding, right?

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 14:18 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
2kg? <boggle> You're kidding, right?

oops, should wake up before I start typing. For some reason I was thinking about frames. Anyway, how much damage is a 10kg bike going to do up against a 1000+kg car and would it really be worth insuring against that?


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 14:52 
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B cyclist wrote:
snip
2) having insurance doesn't make people better cyclists. You just have to look at the standard of a lot of drivers to see this.


I agree - it's the lack of competance of a few which makes insurance a good idea for drivers and cyclists alike! Likewise a few pedestrians around Windermere and Bowness during Bank Holidays who are likely to CAUSE an accident, if not be involved in one.
The really worrying ones are those who step out from between parked cars with a baby in a buggy - using it as a means to force drivers to stop or evade them. Who is likely to end up paying if in avoiding them, you end up hitting an oncoming vehicle?

My concern for 3rd party insurance for any road user is the insurance companies desire to make an obscene profit from it! :oops:

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 16:36 
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johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
2kg? <boggle> You're kidding, right?

oops, should wake up before I start typing. For some reason I was thinking about frames. Anyway, how much damage is a 10kg bike going to do up against a 1000+kg car and would it really be worth insuring against that?


A 10 kg bike and rider going down the side of car can cause damage costing thousands in repairs/resprays etc if unlucky. I have colleagues who have had cyclists (normally students ;) ) colliding with their car (and it being entirely the cyclists fault - usually inattention) and having to pay for their own repairs as none of the cyclists has been insured so far.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 17:28 
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B cyclist wrote:
1) most cyclists do have insurance - through the CTC, home insurance or similar.

I always consider this to be a very questionable statement. Undoubtedly many cyclists have insurance through these routes.

But a lot of the cyclists I see are scruffy student or low-life types who you would be surprised held any home insurance.

And I know my insurance company demanded an extra £90 for the "all risks" cover that would include cycling. So I declined their offer.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 17:43 
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prof beard wrote:
johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
2kg? <boggle> You're kidding, right?

oops, should wake up before I start typing. For some reason I was thinking about frames. Anyway, how much damage is a 10kg bike going to do up against a 1000+kg car and would it really be worth insuring against that?


A 10 kg bike and rider going down the side of car can cause damage costing thousands in repairs/resprays etc if unlucky. I have colleagues who have had cyclists (normally students ;) ) colliding with their car (and it being entirely the cyclists fault - usually inattention) and having to pay for their own repairs as none of the cyclists has been insured so far.


You would be amazed at the amount of damage a bike can do. Prof's right - resprays and dents can cost unbelievable amounts of cash. Mike - based in North Yorks and my cousin Krissi's husband once had a costly incident. He was waiting to turn left at a T- junction in Leeds. Cyclist took the corner at speed and wide - and collided with Mike's wing mirror. Mike asked for details and was apparently told to what to do, rather garaphically, with a part of of his anatomy :roll: and the cyclist rode off without exchanging any further details. I gather the replacement wing mirror cost a fair amount of cash to replace and refit.

Was not the sort of incident which gave poor old Mike any warm feelings towards his fellow man at the time!

But as Wildy has said above - there is damage - bike to bike which is also worth insuring against as well. As for all cyclists having some kind of insurance....

Not all do (in fact most most "casual riders" don't - it's mostly a handful of serious with serious bikes who do insure)


I think it best to shop around for decent deal with a more objectively focussed insurer - even though we all more or less accept that most are business sharks anyway. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 09:04 
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Doesn't surprise me that a cyclist would "hit and run". Very difficult to trace after all - even if there are CCTV cameras it would take a lot of effort to find them. And with it being a "damage only" incident, I don't know how much the police would allocate resources to find the cyclist in question.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 09:47 
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Earl Purple wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that a cyclist would "hit and run". Very difficult to trace after all - even if there are CCTV cameras it would take a lot of effort to find them. And with it being a "damage only" incident, I don't know how much the police would allocate resources to find the cyclist in question.


Oh, I think it highly unlikely that you'd get a hit and run if the bike caused significant damage to the car. The bike wouldn't work, and the rider might not be much better off. I'm sure the car driver would be fine though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:57 
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B cyclist wrote:
Earl Purple wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that a cyclist would "hit and run". Very difficult to trace after all - even if there are CCTV cameras it would take a lot of effort to find them. And with it being a "damage only" incident, I don't know how much the police would allocate resources to find the cyclist in question.


Oh, I think it highly unlikely that you'd get a hit and run if the bike caused significant damage to the car. The bike wouldn't work, and the rider might not be much better off. I'm sure the car driver would be fine though.


And what if it was a person the cyclist hit and not a car?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 13:32 
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Dixie wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
Earl Purple wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that a cyclist would "hit and run". Very difficult to trace after all - even if there are CCTV cameras it would take a lot of effort to find them. And with it being a "damage only" incident, I don't know how much the police would allocate resources to find the cyclist in question.


Oh, I think it highly unlikely that you'd get a hit and run if the bike caused significant damage to the car. The bike wouldn't work, and the rider might not be much better off. I'm sure the car driver would be fine though.


And what if it was a person the cyclist hit and not a car?


Yes, what if it was!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 16:19 
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B cyclist wrote:
Yes, what if it was!

indeed. Far more likely that some idiot has strolled onto the road without looking, wiped out the cyclist, killed his/her bike and b*ggered off leaving cyclist and bike lying in the road. So, are you all now going to demand that pedestrians get insurance? Would YOU be happy to pay?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 16:28 
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johnsher wrote:
B cyclist wrote:
Yes, what if it was!

indeed. Far more likely that some idiot has strolled onto the road without looking, wiped out the cyclist, killed his/her bike and b*ggered off leaving cyclist and bike lying in the road. So, are you all now going to demand that pedestrians get insurance? Would YOU be happy to pay?


Insurance or no insurance - we still have the same liability if we cause damage or injury to another party.

I don't see any great need to insure cyclists, but it is a concern when someone is injured - possibly seriously or fatally - on the road through no fault of their own.

I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that 'cyclists don't do that much damage' because the real world figures say otherwise.

While I like the 'cyclists are more like pedestrians that motor vehicle users' status quo, what are we going to do when careless cycling takes out a bread winner? That's the hard question...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 17:13 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that 'cyclists don't do that much damage' because the real world figures say otherwise.

let's see those figures then.

edit: I've had around £10K worth of damage done to me/my bikes over time and the sum total of damage to the cars in those same accidents has been 0.


Last edited by johnsher on Thu Jun 01, 2006 17:17, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 17:16 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
what are we going to do when careless cycling takes out a bread winner?

a few more questions for you.

What are we going to do when careless walking takes out a bread winner (as per my example above)?

What are we going to do when an uninsured/unlicensed driver takes out a bread winner?

What are we going to do when any driver takes out a bread winner and runs?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 17:33 
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johnsher wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that 'cyclists don't do that much damage' because the real world figures say otherwise.

let's see those figures then.

edit: I've had around £10K worth of damage done to me/my bikes over time and the sum total of damage to the cars in those same accidents has been 0.


Forget the damage. It's injuries we need to be interested in. See:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 041146.xls

47 KSI between cyclists and pedestrians, of which 3 killed in 2004 (latest).

Obviously we don't know about blame or cause.

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