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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 18:53 
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This happened today...

NSL dual carriageway, I'm doing a safe speed (where I can stop in the distance I can see to be clear). Couldn't give an exact figure as I was watching the road, not my speedo...

Side turning on the near side. A car was waiting to pull out. There was nothing behind me in my lane so I figured driver of said car would wait until I'd gone past. (I was in the left lane, there was a Peugeot 307 about 1/2 car length behind me on my offside. I'll just mention that at this point when I say "1/2 car length" I mean that his front end was that far behind my rear bumper.

Driver of car in side turning looks straight at me when I'm about 3-4 car lengths from the turning. By this point I was down to around 50mph and dropped to 4th (6 speed box), not sure of exact speed but RPM was around 2,200, right at the point of max acceleration. Driver pulls out, no chance of me stopping!

Only one thing for it... hit the loud pedal. Accelerated very rapidly into the gap to my right. Normally that would be the end of it. Except...

Cue lots of abusive gestures and headlamp flashing from the driver of the 307 (male, early 20s). Initally I'd thought this was directed at the driver of the car that had pulled out, but no, 307 man proceeded to sit on my bumper and mouth abuse.

In the event I just ignored him and dropped back into the LH lane, but one has to wonder how he missed the events that led to me having to pull out that close in front of him to avoid a collision? I do notice this type of behaviour a lot from younger/less experienced drivers, they seem to only observe what's happening straight in front of them.

I know exactly why 307 driver reacted in the way he did. In his eyes I'd pulled out into "his" lane and invaded his space. Clearly he hadn't seen (or cared about) the other car pulling out into my path on a collision course.

However had I been in the position of the 307 I would have been observing the side turning, noticed the car, expected it to pull out in front of the car to my left and either dropped back to leave room or floored it to make room depending on the road conditions.

Any comments?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 02:43 
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My comment is that you'd allowed a pinch point to be created. Were I in your position, in the 30 seconds or so run-up to that junction I would have made sure, either by loud pedal depression or, more likely if this one was coming up from behind, by easing off a bit, that I would have controlled this situation, creating a gap to pull out into, and either done so gratuitously or been ready to do so. I think from what you've said, the chances are the emerging car never saw the one behind/outside of you - you'd likely obfuscated him all along. Likewise the fast one was similarly obfuscated by you of the emerging car.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 08:42 
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307 driver was behind me and to my offside but hadn't made any attempt to overtake me even though we were on a DC.

The whole sequence I described above happened in probably 4-5 seconds from seeing the car pull up at the junction to me having to take evasive action and the 307 driver reacting the way he did.

Thing is I've had someone dart out in front of me like that under similar circumstances, usually on a motorway when someone goes from L1 to L2 without bothering to look/indicate, causing driver in L2 to be faced with either running into the back of the guy who's just come from L1 or quickly moving to L3 and straight into my path. I wouldn't react like the guy in that 307 did.

Yes, I had to pull out in front of you and floor it. No, I didn't want to rear-end someone who had just pulled out in front of me. No, at no point were you in any danger of hitting me.

My only mistake that I can see was to stray into the invisible "bubble" surrounding the guy's car, and if I was right about his age he may well have only been looking straight ahead and not seen what caused me to have to quickly change lanes.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:27 
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Squirrel wrote:
307 driver was behind me and to my offside but hadn't made any attempt to overtake me even though we were on a DC.

How long did you allow that cat-and-mouse scenario to exist? These are situations to dispense with one way or another. As soon as he starts pacing you, back off a bit. If that doesn't work, stick you toe down. If both fail, be VERY alert. I typically ease off just a tad as cars overtake me on d/c to minimise the time I'm en pris. Single carriageway roads are different - doing so if you'ew not certain the overtaker has committed to the manoeuvre might hang him out to dry if he aborts.

Squirrel wrote:
The whole sequence I described above happened in probably 4-5 seconds from seeing the car pull up at the junction to me having to take evasive action and the 307 driver reacting the way he did.
I'm sure it did. I'm referring to the period when matey arrived on your right shoulder. That, with a junction looming, was the situation to avoid. Always have an escape lane if possible.

Squirrel wrote:
Thing is I've had someone dart out in front of me like that under similar circumstances, usually on a motorway when someone goes from L1 to L2 without bothering to look/indicate, causing driver in L2 to be faced with either running into the back of the guy who's just come from L1 or quickly moving to L3 and straight into my path. I wouldn't react like the guy in that 307 did.
As I said elsewhere on this board quite recently, unless I *know* that the next lane is clear (and I've usually orchestrated it so to be), if something "suddenly" (and that is another debate, but going with it for now) comes into your path, braking hard is best, if your front has not reached the point of no return. Pulling across may well precipitate a mulitple pile up, whether you're involved or not.

Squirrel wrote:
Yes, I had to pull out in front of you and floor it. No, I didn't want to rear-end someone who had just pulled out in front of me. No, at no point were you in any danger of hitting me.

My only mistake that I can see was to stray into the invisible "bubble" surrounding the guy's car, and if I was right about his age he may well have only been looking straight ahead and not seen what caused me to have to quickly change lanes.

Don't be too hard on yourself! In terms of Mistake, you needed to be in control of the situation earlier. I say again - not looking for blame - looking for what could have been done better. In general terms I say you could have managed the space around your vehicle better, in the 20 or so seconds leading to the incident, either by extra punch so that the outside laner was well behind you when you arrived at the junction or by backing off just a tad so he got there first. This also would have overcome the 2-way eclipse you unwittingly created.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 16:51 
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Squirrel wrote:
This happened today...

NSL dual carriageway, I'm doing a safe speed (where I can stop in the distance I can see to be clear). Couldn't give an exact figure as I was watching the road, not my speedo...

Side turning on the near side. A car was waiting to pull out. There was nothing behind me in my lane so I figured driver of said car would wait until I'd gone past.



Ah.. but were you? :scratchchin: Always a chance that the person at the junction may under-estimate your speed of approach.


Quote:

(I was in the left lane, there was a Peugeot 307 about 1/2 car length behind me on my offside. I'll just mention that at this point when I say "1/2 car length" I mean that his front end was that far behind my rear bumper.



OK ., the Pug driver was a SMIDSY to the chap at the junction as he cannot see through metal. :roll:

I would have eased off to help the overtake here.

Quote:
Driver of car in side turning looks straight at me when I'm about 3-4 car lengths from the turning. By this point I was down to around 50mph and dropped to 4th (6 speed box), not sure of exact speed but RPM was around 2,200, right at the point of max acceleration. Driver pulls out, no chance of me stopping!



But as Roger points out - you could have eased off .. allowed the other chap to pass and then entered L2 with a much imporved safety margin.. and a feel good factor for having dealt with this other muppet safely. :roll: No one is saying the person at the junction behaved correctly - given he pulled out into a fast road with a car approaching :roll:

But that you could have given yourself a better margin by just making sure the chap sitting on your offside bumper actually passed you . sooner rather than later.

On the other hand .. you say you had got down to 50 mph .. which leads me to wonder why the Pug driver was still so levelly behind you? :scratchchin:

Quote:
Only one thing for it... hit the loud pedal. Accelerated very rapidly into the gap to my right. Normally that would be the end of it. Except...





Cue lots of abusive gestures and headlamp flashing from the driver of the 307 (male, early 20s). Initally I'd thought this was directed at the driver of the car that had pulled out, but no, 307 man proceeded to sit on my bumper and mouth abuse.

In the event I just ignored him and dropped back into the LH lane, but one has to wonder how he missed the events that led to me having to pull out that close in front of him to avoid a collision? I do notice this type of behaviour a lot from younger/less experienced drivers, they seem to only observe what's happening straight in front of them.

I know exactly why 307 driver reacted in the way he did. In his eyes I'd pulled out into "his" lane and invaded his space. Clearly he hadn't seen (or cared about) the other car pulling out into my path on a collision course.

However had I been in the position of the 307 I would have been observing the side turning, noticed the car, expected it to pull out in front of the car to my left and either dropped back to leave room or floored it to make room depending on the road conditions.

Any comments?



Two or three wrongs never maketh one right :roll: You should have encouraged his overtake of you. He should have taken this encouragement - since you say you had slowed to 50 mph on what I am led to understand might have been NSL... and he was still the same distance behind .. assuming you were at 50 mph here :wink:

Muppet at the junction should have known better too. :roll:

I would perhaps have rid myself of the MLM sitting in a blind spot earlier..by either letting him overtake or simply accelerating up to create a space to move into long before reaching the junction

Would depend on all the COAST skills as to how to deal with and diffuse the potential danger.

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A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 22:51 
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Squirrel wrote:
Driver of car in side turning looks straight at me when I'm about 3-4 car lengths from the turning. By this point I was down to around 50mph and dropped to 4th (6 speed box), not sure of exact speed but RPM was around 2,200, right at the point of max acceleration. Driver pulls out, no chance of me stopping!

Only one thing for it... hit the loud pedal. Accelerated very rapidly into the gap to my right. Normally that would be the end of it. Except...


I think you made a wrong decision here.

Tapping the brakes and then moving out behind the 307 would have been the safer move.

Of course never being in the position you were in, with an obvious hazard ahead and no escape route would have been best.

In fact, seeing someone wanting to pull out wouldn't it have been courteous to move over to L2 to give them space? You may have even contributed to his move by slowing down, perhaps he saw it as an invitation to pull out?

I'm not saying the others are blameless, far from it. Numpty pulling out should never assume he is being let out, Numpty sitting on your bumper shouldn't be sat there. But I'm not in a position to help them. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 16:42 
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Sorry Squirrel - read a lot of your oher posts ( and you seem to figure highly in the "nearly missed list "(could it be due to lack of advanced planning ?perhaps a read of IG COAST might solve some of your problems !!)-firstly think that IG was being kind (in his own fashion to you ) .
you'll get to my age by ASSUMING that ALL person seen to be about to pull out of a side road are IDIOTS ,and they will do so ,irrespective of whether or not it's safe to do so ---so when you see someone waiting to pull out - wise move is to check mirror early on ---to see if you have space to move out (JUST IN CASE PRATT PULLS OUT ) ,or reduce speed to make space to allow you to pull out --called preventative /defensive driving

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:02 
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botach wrote:
Sorry Squirrel - read a lot of your oher posts ( and you seem to figure highly in the "nearly missed list "(could it be due to lack of advanced planning ?perhaps a read of IG COAST might solve some of your problems !!)-firstly think that IG was being kind (in his own fashion to you ) .
you'll get to my age by ASSUMING that ALL person seen to be about to pull out of a side road are IDIOTS ,and they will do so ,irrespective of whether or not it's safe to do so ---so when you see someone waiting to pull out - wise move is to check mirror early on ---to see if you have space to move out (JUST IN CASE PRATT PULLS OUT ) ,or reduce speed to make space to allow you to pull out --called preventative /defensive driving



Aye - he needs to work on his COAST skills and needs to at least look at IAM courses or some refresher.

I actually would like him to drive in Durham... on the basis that we might get him on our DIS course :twisted:

Nearest he'd get to a "Hendon-style course" and he'd also have the "advantage" of being "debriefed and fully evaluated :yikes: by the guvnor" :twisted: :bunker:

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:55 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Don't know if it's still current practice in Germany ,but many moons ago "accidents" did not just happen -they were caused (so I was led to believe by an old workmate who was stationed in Germany ).So if you had a shunt and the politiziewagon turned up first question was "Who caused this ?" .Perhaps driving with this in mind might make for a more polite social way of driving . (But there's no cash in that (but that don't seem to bother Durham).
Think I could move up there - at least from my impressions on here , the police are about the sqame age as me :evil:

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Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


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