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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 19:43 
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This mini roundabout by Walkden Railway Station . (the one which cannot be modernised .. and will always preclude families with baby buggies and disabled family :roll: We have this verbatim from "Friends of Walkden Station" .. which society Ju-Ju has been engaged with to glean some weapon to fight the congestion charge with :lol: Jazz tries to "subvert" councillors :rotfl: and one told her she had the calibre and fight to stand for office as an "Indy" :yikes: :lol: Claire has met Jazz.. but Ju-Ju got delayed at school that January evening. Oh well .. next time Claire passes through Manchester .. the folks there will take her to dinner and help sort out a decent bed for the night.

Anyway just for the history of this junction:

1. The only accidents are HIGH vehicles which get stuck under the low bridge. Now before folk criticise the lorry drivers.. take a look at the SECOND bridge here. This bridge holds the notorious record of de-roofing large vehicles and has done so since buses and truck came to be .. per the local "lore and legend" ,.. and proven by records.



Image

2. The road was once a T junction. Most locals use another road ..cross the one way road beyond the bridge (the one which cyclists freewheel down illegally :yikes: towards the bridges .. :yikes: and then turn right and drive beneath the bridge on the other parallel one way.. which we understand came to be in 1966.

No accident occurred at the old T-junction or at the local short cuts.

Since the mini roundabout was installed.. a car collided with the book-keeper at the corner the same day.

There have been umpteen collisions .. with the last one being a fortnight ago.. involving a van .. a car and a shunt through steel barriers into the hairdresser's immediately opposite the white building where the bookmaker's is located :roll:

Image

This last photo is taken from some distance to try to show the full lay-out. Jazz apologises for phot quality .. but she was on the way to some exam meeting at the time she paused to take the photo.


Image

Anyway.. the point of this is a follow on from a thread in SPL .. but I wonder if folk can suggest why this mini-roundabout might be extremely "accident prone" ..given it replaced a rather difficult T junction when folk had to see traffic entering the two way system from beneath the bridge on the side on the bookmaker's side from a distance.. :? :? :shock: :?

What would be a solution from an engineering point of view? :scratchchin:

My family in Manchester think it has more to do with some lack of expertise on the part of some.. hesitations and a complete misinterpretation of intent... along with a fail to look properly.

Which covers about everything :o :roll: :?

By the way .. this junction has seen one seriously injured cyclist. :roll: :(

SO what is going wrong here? And what can Jazz.. Ju-Ju and Jonathan (and families) suggest when they write to the council's Highways planning bods to try to make it all a bit safer here..

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 07:38 
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Any chance that you could give us a link to Live Local or Google Earth?

Edit: Found it!

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=l&hl=en ... 6&t=k&z=19

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 19:20 
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Cheers mate. I never think of the blindin' obvious .. :banghead:

Anyway. forgot to say and have been "instructed to by the wimmin down in this little "leafy oasis of Manchester" that the junction in question.. despite being "tricky and requiring patient observation" had not been accident prone for the preceding 50 years or so per the more "senior locals" and the "friends of Walkden Railway Station" :popcorn:

So.. why has this suddenly become so accident prone as soon as the mini-roundabout was built. The first accident occurred just days after it appeared..

Barriers were then placed. These are currently mangled and twisted after the latest incident. The family claim it has developed a SMIDSY at one exit and think the traffic heading up Memorial Road .. towards Walkden centre and the main A6/A572 junction .. fail to take in traffic turning right into Park Road.


(another tale in itself as it is a rat run which would actually qualify for a Gatso based on its record on the straight past the Parr Fold park. :roll: Oh by the way .. it has SLOW paint.. rumble strips .... now.. No parked cars .. but folk perhaps get into bother because they misjudge the speed where the road bends from each direction into this "straight". Move the cursor a bit down this road .. you'll see what the girls mean here. :wink: I should have got the girls to send Paul a photo as it lent a hell of a lot of substance to one of his pages on the main site and would have gob-smacked the bloke in the "register" on the SPL thread )

There also seems to be an issue with the exit from the residential road at the side of the bookmaker's. It seems the traffic heading up to Walkden do not seem to be aware of the folk exiting here. :roll:



:shhh: About the insistence that Worsley is a Manchester leafy oasis of a suburb.. (Apparently it's really Salford and the council like to say that this area is "IN Salford" whilst the locals claim to be tempted to use black spray cans to deny it all .. :popcorn:

But hey-ho. Worsley is still pretty enough on the eye.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 19:38 
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Who decided it would be a good idea to have a T junction on a mini roundabout?

What was the direction of travel for the vehicles involved in the accidents?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 20:06 
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One obvious problem is the appalling sight lines with all the buildings right up to the corners but they would have been there before the MR was built.

I can't imagine anyone coming from the North (down the one way) or from the South and wanting to turn right doing anything but driving over the painted island. Just look at the alignment!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 07:53 
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I have thought about this now and, IMO, the collisions are likely to be caused by people who want to turn right from the various directions taking an unnatural path to do so.

For example, before the MR, someone coming from the South and wanting to turn East would not interface with the traffic and junctions just further North. They would just wait for a gap and turn. Now they have to attempt to go round the MR which involves them turning towards cars coming from the North at the very angled Give Way line which allows them to intrude on to the MR.

It's all to do with directing traffic towards one another instead of away into opening gaps.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 13:23 
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At this roundabout, more than any I think I've seen before (certainly more than those I regularly negotiate), wrongsiding a right turn when safe to do so would telegraph one's intended progresison far better than the dummy inevitably sold by the swinging left before hard right. In fact it is entirely possible that that roundabout is so exaggerated in its poor choice of white hump/spot position that self-cancellation of a right turn could result, making an accidental pull-out-in-front even more likely.

Who dreams these schemes up?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 14:12 
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I've not been around long enough to know... but am I right in assuming roundabouts were thought up originally for junctions where there were at least 4 entrances/exits rather than T-Junctions - where it mostly doesnt make sense for a roundabout.?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 16:44 
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mmltonge wrote:
I've not been around long enough to know... but am I right in assuming roundabouts were thought up originally for junctions where there were at least 4 entrances/exits rather than T-Junctions - where it mostly doesnt make sense for a roundabout.?

The only ones I've seen with 4 exits are double-mini-roundabouts.

Maybe this junction could do with being a mini double mini roundabout?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:30 
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No I meant proper roundabouts, the ones with an actual island in the middle... as opposed to the silly little bits of paint on the road which don't tend to serve any any more purpose than being a big round white give way to the right sign. Obvo there are mini's that are usful, such as on 3 roads joining like

Image

With the roundabout in the middle there... however does it not seem they are just putting in far too many "roundabouts" of the mini variety in to use up road budget?

For example... Wandsworth, as I understand it, what they raise from parking permits, parking fines, parking tickets etc can only be spent again on the roads - so recently they've gone on a mass "raised crossing point" construction program to use up the budget. Y'know, the seemingly pointless bits of paved raised road at the end of a road. As far as I can tell they just make it another bump your suspension has to put up with. Are far too many of the mini-roundabouts not being used in exactly the same way? I can find plenty of examples of poor, seemingly unncecessary, mini roundabouts in a 5 mile radius of my house alone.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 15:20 
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Theres clearly very little deflection on the approaches to this roundabout and seemingly bad visibility on some approaches which i would suggest adds to the issues here. Remember that for any mini roundabout (as with any measures or junctions) then theres a projected personal injury accident number. For a four arm mini roundabout its approximately 1.5 per year, and looking at this I would suspect more. Its not a great design for a mini roundabout.

However, i would take with a great pinch of salt the claim that there were no accidents here before the installation of the roundabout. Memory is a terrible thing and I would suspect that there were loads of accidents prior to the roundabout being placed here just by looking at what the layout would have been.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 20:07 
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exiledblue wrote:
Memory is a terrible thing and I would suspect that there were loads of accidents prior to the roundabout being placed here just by looking at what the layout would have been.


Problem with memory is that a few (if not more )drivers don't look for the newMR - only remembering the give way options before .Strange that in my neck of the woods there has been great public furore over several MR( due to either ignorance or bloody minded ness on the part of the previous "main road " users)- and now these have reverted to the T junctions of old .So point is -are these MR just a PC way of attempting to promote road safety , or in great need of promotion from thee road safety angle - something which IMHO is sadly lacking .

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 21:54 
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a little late on this thread but ....

Blindspots are rife here and late vision is 'typical'.

New knowledge of the situation is a driver skill that requires concentration, and is from your reports, clearly lacking.
Clear New Layout signage can help, but driver attention and courtesy is required in 'good amounts' here. Even an Accident Blackspot sign might help too !

With the road curving from one direction, the bridge distraction prior to the roundabout, and main road which I bet has 'speed flow through' the roundabout, can all add up to a subtle collection of problems, that may be solved by a variety of solutions.

The regular higher speed flow throughput of the main road is such that pulling out onto the MR maybe causing drivers to 'dive' out and take a 'bad risk', add the bad sight line visions, and barriers, plus road bend (cars arrivals at speed & seen late by others) and there is a prime situation to an accident festival.
During the busier times of this neighbourhood and perhaps even some parked cars, peds. etc this will add to driver distraction prior to this 'difficult' road layout.
I could imagine that good engineering would help this situation, local drive courtesy adverts / education films would help too - I would hope and expect.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 13:02 
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Ziltro wrote:
Who decided it would be a good idea to have a T junction on a mini roundabout?

What was the direction of travel for the vehicles involved in the accidents?


Aye, local councils often seem to prefer to complicate junctions by mixing different ideas together, badly implementing them and you end up with too many places to look at at once.

Like said cars coming from the south wanting to turn right will be inclined to turn "against" the roundabout. The layout is awkward and drivers may be confused as to others intentions.

Given that the road to the east is not a main road, leading to houses and some small industrial units which have alternative access/egress, could you block this off, leaving a simple T junction mini roundabout?

Or move the entire roundabout north slightly, make the east road one-way exit only and centre-barrier the south road to make the right turn impossible.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 15:03 
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I dont think so, i have been hit twice, both were women, my hubby driving the accident last year was on a round about she was in the wrong lane, and then this week, the woman told us that she never stops at a junction?????????? i think its their fault not my hubbys driving?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 16:08 
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Dolfuttefly wrote:
I dont think so, i have been hit twice, both were women, my hubby driving the accident last year was on a round about she was in the wrong lane, and then this week, the woman told us that she never stops at a junction?????????? i think its their fault not my hubbys driving?


:welcome: Dolfuttefly.

We try here not to look for 'fault' but how as good drivers we can do everything (inc leaving good space all around us) in our power, to learn and improve so that we can avoid other people's mistake/s.

By trying to anticipating and be very aware of all possible traffic we can often go back to incidents and find 'look but did not see', failed to look, assumed an action / inaction, etc and thus the incident followed.
Typically speaking there are about 5 very crucial seconds before any and every accident where it might have been possible (with enough knowledge, skill and ability) to anticipate, allow for, and potentially avoid nearly all accidents.

Understand good driving is what we try to do and by fully trying to understand what happened in this incident that your husband was involved in, may help us all learn together.

I agree totally at your horror that another driver would ever express such an outrageous statement that as you report 'she never stops at a junction'. If this is fully what she meant then this needs to be addressed by the police.

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