Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:47

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 22:13 
Offline
User

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 01:55
Posts: 235
Location: Bristol
The situation I'm about to describe has two parts. The first one happened. The second part is a "what if?" question.

On Saturday night just gone my friend was driving down the M5. After he'd passed junction 25 he hit a flooded section of motorway still doing 60mph and spun the car out, quite spectacularly I'm led to believe! He said it went 360 degrees, carried on spinning and ended up straddling lanes 2 and 3 pointing UP the southbound carriageway at 45 degrees. Amazingly he managed not to hit the crash barrier or leave the road and at this point both him and the car were unharmed (although he was understandably shaken up by it).

Now on this occasion he was able to straighten the car up and pull onto the hard shoulder to calm down before continuing to the next services (he was about a mile from Taunton Deane services) to stop for a break and a coffee.

My question here isn't what he did wrong, he knows what happened, he failed to see the flooded section due to a wet road and glare from oncoming traffic on the other carriageway. What I want to know is had he not managed to clear out of the way in time and something else had hit him while he was stationary who would have been at fault? Him because he was positioned across 2 lanes of the carriageway following a spin? Or the person who hit him on the basis that his vehicle was a "stationary hazard"?

Or would it have gone knock-for-knock on the basis that he'd suffered a loss of control (even though he'd recovered from it and this hadn't directly caused any collision) but the driver that may have ploughed into him wasn't leaving sufficient stopping distance?

That's assuming of course that nobody was injured!

_________________
Magistrates rule #1: "Never let justice get in the way of a conviction."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 00:13 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Without answering specifically I can think of a couple of things to use as tests.

You should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

Running into another vehicle from behind is generally seen as your fault.

On motorways I think people assume that there will not be static hazards other than queues of many vehicles. It can take a long time, i.e. several seconds, to realise something up ahead is either not moving or moving very slowly. As an aside, I remember in one discussion coming up with a figure of 2-3 seconds for the time it takes another driver to notice you are indicating to change lane. Usually you see this sort of hazard from a reasonable distance so taking a while does not really matter.

I would guess your mates car still had its lights on, but next time you are out on the MW at night with nothing in front have a look at how many 100m posts your dipped beam picks up.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 04:36 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
I would also say that having missed seeing the water, the next best asset to have as a good driver is skid pan training. This way the skid is FAR less of an 'issue' and I totally understand the need to take a moment, and then continue but lets keep that highly dangerous position of recovery, to an absolute minimum. The less skidding feels unfamiliar the better you deal with it when it happens for real.

Insurance well I reckon like Toltec that they will view it as a rear shunt.
To have skidded and in the first place then to have regained control of the vehicle is good and that will go in his/her favour.
Depends on the accident. I would absolutely get off the road a.s.a.p.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 01:58 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
Squirrel wrote:
My question here isn't what he did wrong, he knows what happened, he failed to see the flooded section due to a wet road and glare from oncoming traffic on the other carriageway.


Without knowing details it sounds like he handled the aquaplane incorrectly. Possibly panic braked which put him in the spin. Or maybe he has a very powerful RWD car and he didn't back off in time.

If someone had run into him then although your friend's spin contributed to the collision I would imagine the blame to be on the other driver.

But you can't trust insurance companies and being in the right would be little compensation if you are hit by a HGV in that situation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 20:04 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
Quote:
I would also say that having missed seeing the water, the next best asset to have as a good driver is skid pan training.


Having done skidpan, I agree 100%.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 00:05 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
I think generally the skid would be seen as driving too fast for the conditions, but accept that it can happen to anyone. Therefore the driver is also liable subsequent damage and guilty of an offence.

However, if he had genuinely lost control through no fault of his own, say a freak blow-out, he would be judged in one of two ways:
1) by the standards of the reasonable driver. He would not be guilty of an offence as it would not be expected that the reasonable driver could maintain control in such circumstances.
2) As an automaton. That is a defence where the driver claims that he had no control and so, was not responsible for what happened.
The above seem similar, but have technical differences and are used together to make a defence – a sort of belt and braces approach.

However, for any damage caused, the driver would be liable, regardless, as that is covered by Tort Law and not Criminal Law. But if another car hits the spun car when it has stopped spinning, then the other car is liable.


Re Skid Pans.
I have never used one only see TV coverage. I am very concerned that people may take a course and believe they can driver safer and so naively raise their accepted level of risk when driving.
In my experience, such skills can’t be learn on a course, or at least not mastered. This degree of handling takes a lot of practice and needs to be constantly practiced. It takes a lot of bottle to full throttle a front wheel drive car when its severely over steering and it is impossible to over come instinct in this split second that you have to react.

Personally, I am lucky in that I live in the country where it is safe to slide a car about on roads and only today I have been on muddy farm tracks, and as such I am able to maintain a natural reaction to cope with skids properly.

By all means try a skid pan course, but please don’t think that this will make you any safer. If you have ESP, then skid-pan training is pointless – but you may find it fun nevertheless.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 17:28 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
LucyW wrote:
I am very concerned that people may take a course and believe they can driver safer and so naively raise their accepted level of risk when driving.


That's a very odd justification for not training drivers! Maybe we shouldn't train drivers at all? We're only encouraging them...

Quote:
By all means try a skid pan course, but please don’t think that this will make you any safer.


As by your own admission you have only seen them on the TV, that's an even odder statement. I thought I knew how to handle a skid but my course taught me a lot. Or I thought it did until you told me otherwise....

Quote:
If you have ESP, then skid-pan training is pointless – but you may find it fun nevertheless.


You don't have ESP, your car does. You may even drive something else one day without ESP! And relying on your driver aids is foolish - they're a safety net. Plus I'd love to see ESP cope with a nice bit of ice and snow, whereas skid training may well help.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 18:26 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
Johnnyboy: have you got nothing better than to twist words for the sake of arguement?

I'm not saying don't train drivers at all get a grip lad.

You may have learnt alot, but have gained any practical skill that can be applied in a emergency situation? Do you keep up regular practice?

OMG so its the car that has ESP!!!! Just what can a driver do that ESP can't? If ESP looses it then, its lost! Nothing a driver can do. Or can you explain otherwise?

What I am saying is dont believe that a skid pan course alone is going to give you the instinctive reactions required for skid control.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 18:39 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
Quote:
Johnnyboy: have you got nothing better than to twist words for the sake of arguement?


No, nor have I the time to compare pots to kettles...

Whether I twisted your words or not, your argument seemed to me to be that a bit of training is as bad and possibly worse than no training. And I fundamentally disagree, especially as you admit that you have not personal tried said training.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 21:18 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Quote:
Johnnyboy: have you got nothing better than to twist words for the sake of arguement?


No, nor have I the time to compare pots to kettles...

Whether I twisted your words or not, your argument seemed to me to be that a bit of training is as bad and possibly worse than no training. And I fundamentally disagree, especially as you admit that you have not personal tried said training.


Well sadly, my last post failed to make it clear what I was saying, so I will try again.

I consider that Skid-pan training can create a false sense of security if people believe that it will equip them to copw with emergency situations.
Skid-pan training is pointless for an ESP driver, as ESP is far superior to human intervention. If fact applying skid-pan techniques to an ESP car will reduce stability.
Once skid-pan training is mastered, it need maintaining, just like a musician needs to practice.

Whilst I haven't undergone skid-pan training, I have been taught car control by experts and have enhanced and maintained my skills with practice. In the same way a one driving lesson won't help you pass your test, so one skid-pan lesson wont make you a competent driver under emergency skidding scenarios.

Get real and slow down.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 22:00 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Quote:
I consider that Skid-pan training can create a false sense of security if people believe that it will equip them to copw with emergency situations.


That, as stated , is probably true. But, of my experience is typical, quite irrelevant. Few of us share your advantage of a large country estate in which to practise our driving. Of those of us don't even fewer are prepared to experiment on public roads, A few hours on a skid an gives us the opportunity to experience the dynamics of a car in a slippery situation.

Prior to my afternoon on the skid pan I regarded a skid as a terminal and unpredictable monster. In that afternoon I learned how to anticipate a skid and that it was controllable, It didn't turn me into a rally driver. It didn't encourage me to drive aggressively . But it did teach me that a skid was a predictable and controllable part of driving.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 22:05 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
Quote:
Whilst I haven't undergone skid-pan training, I have been taught car control by experts and have enhanced and maintained my skills with practice.


So why do you think training for others is a bad thing? And why do you have such a strong opinion on a training method you haven't experienced?

And what relevance does your last line have to, well, anything?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 22:24 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
Johhny, dcb seems to have grasped my point, you are obviously here to argue.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 22:52 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 13:55
Posts: 2247
Location: middlish
hmmm i'm not sure who to side with on this one.

i know of at least one test driver who's skill i respected who was caught out by some gravel on the way off a roundabout and wrote the car off, oversteer on high mu can be hard to handle when you're expecting it , if you're not expecting it even the most qualified/experienced can be caught unawares.

so i agree a one off skidpan training won't necessarily help in a real life situation.
and even the reactions of a very skilled driver may not be a gaurantee.

that said i wouldnt dismiss the experience as totally worthless, in a more marginal situation if it causes someone to stop applying throttle on the verge of understeer, or causes a timely (timely being the tricky bit here!) countersteer .... which saves a prang ... then its been worthwhile hasn't it ?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:29 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Lucy W wrote:
Johhny, dcb seems to have grasped my point, you are obviously here to argue.


But but but ... I was disagreeing with you. I think that skid pan training is worthwhile because ...

[quote=ed_m]in a more marginal situation if it causes someone to stop applying throttle on the verge of understeer, or causes a timely (timely being the tricky bit here!) countersteer .... which saves a prang ... then its been worthwhile hasn't it ?[/quote]

That was how the instructor on my course justified it. He also taught us how to anticipate situations in which you were likely to skid. And, hey, it was great fun :D

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
ed_m wrote:
i know of at least one test driver who's skill i respected who was caught out by some gravel on the way off a roundabout and wrote the car off,


Obviously going too fast :D

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 18:33 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
ed_m wrote:

that said i wouldnt dismiss the experience as totally worthless, in a more marginal situation if it causes someone to stop applying throttle on the verge of understeer, or causes a timely (timely being the tricky bit here!) countersteer .... which saves a prang ... then its been worthwhile hasn't it ?


Well yes it has been worthwhile if that really is the benefit. But not if you leave was an ocerestimation of your skills/abilities as you will drive faster as your precieved risk is lower than it really is.

But if you are confusing ESP with conflicting steering wheel inputs, then I don't think it is. Ever seen a skid-pan car with ESP?

People would be better spending their money on ESP training if that's what they normally drive. Nevertheless I am sure skid panning can be a fun day out and wouldn't want to deprive anyone of that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 18:39 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
dcbwhaley: I was not saying you agreed but merely that you seemed to understand my point (albeit you disagree).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 19:17 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
Lucy W wrote:
Johhny, dcb seems to have grasped my point, you are obviously here to argue.


Coming from you, Lucy, I'm not sure whether that's an insult or a backhanded compliment. :lol:

To clarify: I understand your argument, I just think you're wrong to think that while training has benefited you, it wouldn't suit anyone else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 20:26 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 21:51
Posts: 293
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Lucy W wrote:
Johhny, dcb seems to have grasped my point, you are obviously here to argue.


Coming from you, Lucy, I'm not sure whether that's an insult or a backhanded compliment. :lol:

To clarify: I understand your argument, I just think you're wrong to think that while training has benefited you, it wouldn't suit anyone else.


I haven't said it wouldn't suit anyone else, merely stated the limited circumstances of its benefits and it is limited to people who can regularly practice it. And limited to non-ESP cars.

My words of warning are that it would be reckless to over-estimate the benefits.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.018s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]