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 Post subject: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 19:41 
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I know we all have to start somewhere, but...

Coming back from Bristol along the B4058, just past the roundabout where the B4062 joins the B4058 and approaching the fork where an unclassified road splits off (the one that leads to the B4060 Dursley road).

As I come around the bend a car pulls up to the turning from the un-numbered road. The driver looks to her left, then to her right, pauses, looks back to her right, sees me... and starts to pull out.

One emergency stop and a lot of swearing and obscene gestures at the female driver and at this point I see the L-plate on the front of her car (not visible from the side of course) and Daddy in the car with her giving her a driving lesson. And big sister in the back by the looks of things.

So, novice driver, no dual controls... I wonder how many accidents are caused like this?

Although I admit that suggesting something like "you must have had X amount of hours driving with an ADI before you're allowed to drive a car without dual controls on a public highway" would be a knee-jerk, so I won't suggest that.

Consider my spleen now vented. Over and out.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 20:42 
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....i'll be the first to say the obvious then...

if you had to to an emergency stop to avoid a fairly obvious potential hazard surely you were going too fast ?
local knowledge told you the junction was there, you'd seen the car at the junction.

and i don't think "a lot of swearing and obscene gestures" is ever helpful or acceptable on the road, sort it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 21:01 
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This goes back to my exchange with weepej on how fast one has to proceed over a crossroads (when you don't have to give way) to mitigate for the possibility of a car failing to give way.

We all risk manage.

If you see a driver stopped at a side turning who appears to see you then you don't slow down as much as if you see a car racing up to the line. I don't think the former consititutes a "fairly obvious hazard".

Squirrel's post makes it clear that he did stop in time, and so he wasn't necessarily going too fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 21:41 
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No in squirrels defence, if he saw her look left, right etc, etc then pull out it would seem that he wasn't bearing down on her and the instructor should have aborted the "pull out".

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 22:43 
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You can't be certain she saw you. If she looked both ways and carried on pulling out she either didn't because of a pillar or misjudged your speed. If you had come round that bend at the same speed and there was a stationary vehicle would you have stopped easily? If not, you were going to fast so you were partly to blame for the cursing. Could you have altered your road position so you could have been seen earlier? Did you make eye contact? Was the sun in your eyes or hers?

Did you use your horn when the car continued rolling?


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 23:16 
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ed_m wrote:
if you had to to an emergency stop to avoid a fairly obvious potential hazard surely you were going too fast ?

and i don't think "a lot of swearing and obscene gestures" is ever helpful or acceptable on the road, sort it out.


The problem is that approaching a potential hazard would then mean you had to gradually slow down until finally becoming stationary just before you reach it. This would be the only way of avoiding an impact if the hazard was to move into your path as your braking distance reduces. At some point you have to take the risk that someone could do something incredibly stupid that you cannot avoid. Safe speed[*] is about mitigating for that and, most importantly, reducing the number of times it happens. Cameras and rigid speed limits can only offer partial mitigation and may even increase the frequency of stupid moves. Given Teabelly's point it would be interesting to hear exactly what Squirrel thought and did when he first saw her and on the approach before she pulled out.

Your last point I agree with, though it is understandable why it happens.

I wonder is L plates on the side of a car would be useful?

[*]What the idea means to me, not this site or campaign specifically

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 09:23 
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How do you know you were not going too fast? Given your estimation of timing and abilities of your car (you thought it could do 40-70 in 2 seconds), perhaps your judgement is a little off.

You have had a *huge* amount of incidents on that road alone. Look here:

search.php?keywords=B4058&terms=all&author=squirrel&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Quote:
However, do not ever get in front of me and hold me up on the unnumbered road between the B4058 and B4066. And certainly don't try and chase me down this road as I will either lose you or make you spin out at the first hairpin


I know, I know. There will be a claim on 'out of context' for that, but I disagree.

Would this road be your test track by any chance? viewtopic.php?p=203003#p203003

Btw, theres 8 threads started by you in this section (near misses and crashes) on the first page alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:15 
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toltec wrote:
ed_m wrote:
if you had to to an emergency stop to avoid a fairly obvious potential hazard surely you were going too fast ?

and i don't think "a lot of swearing and obscene gestures" is ever helpful or acceptable on the road, sort it out.


The problem is that approaching a potential hazard would then mean you had to gradually slow down until finally becoming stationary just before you reach it. This would be the only way of avoiding an impact if the hazard was to move into your path as your braking distance reduces. At some point you have to take the risk that someone could do something incredibly stupid that you cannot avoid. Safe speed[*] is about mitigating for that and, most importantly, reducing the number of times it happens. Cameras and rigid speed limits can only offer partial mitigation and may even increase the frequency of stupid moves. Given Teabelly's point it would be interesting to hear exactly what Squirrel thought and did when he first saw her and on the approach before she pulled out.


yes i agree it is an issue... i think my reaction in such a case would have been .. caution and moderating speed knowing the junction existed... backing off the throttle on seeing the hazard and probably moving close to the centre of the road away from the hazard as much as possible.



are the gestures really understandable ?


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:56 
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ed_m wrote:

yes i agree it is an issue... i think my reaction in such a case would have been .. caution and moderating speed knowing the junction existed... backing off the throttle on seeing the hazard and probably moving close to the centre of the road away from the hazard as much as possible.


Sounds good to me, at some point though if the other driver were to pull out there would be nothing you could do to avoid a collision. This once happened to me while cycling, a car simply pulled out of the junction as I was passing it. That aside it would be interesting to hear if Squirrel did the same as you would have on the approach to the junction.

ed_m wrote:
are the gestures really understandable ?


Surprise and the fight or flight response make the response understandable, getting into the situation in the first place is less so.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 13:39 
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toltec wrote:
ed_m wrote:
are the gestures really understandable ?


Surprise and the fight or flight response make the response understandable, getting into the situation in the first place is less so.


i'm afraid i might just be too laid back for my own good then.
even when this kind of thing does happen to me i usually just take suitable avoiding action, shrug my shoulders and carry on.
especially since so often they are things that i've at least anticipated as a possiblity so i'm not particularly surprised when they happen.

i'm not a police officer, i have no authority to do anything about them, no amount of gesticulating or aggressive driving is going to have an effect either on their driving or in making me feel better.

frequently when these things happen my wife comments that she's glad i was driving, and i have to point out i've been expecting that move for the last 5-10seconds so it wasn't really a big problem just an inconvenience.

my life's too busy to spend time getting annoyed about other people's failings.
just pat yourself on the back for another numpty move anticipated and another accident avoided and get on with life!

and i worry that some people are so highly strung that this kind of road rage response is considered 'normal'.


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 15:21 
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ed_m wrote:
i'm afraid i might just be too laid back for my own good then.
even when this kind of thing does happen to me i usually just take suitable avoiding action, shrug my shoulders and carry on.
especially since so often they are things that i've at least anticipated as a possiblity so i'm not particularly surprised when they happen.

i've been expecting that move for the last 5-10seconds so it wasn't really a big problem just an inconvenience.


Sounds pretty much what I aim for too, I sometimes get mildly irritated when I have to brake for drivers that appear to have been deliberately pushy rather than just making a mistake. That usually only means I mutter something derogatory about their attitude or just give a tired sigh. If anything I try to make any gestures or communication to other road users positive, even if they did something a bit silly!

ed_m wrote:
my life's too busy to spend time getting annoyed about other people's failings.
just pat yourself on the back for another numpty move anticipated and another accident avoided and get on with life!


The way I see it we all make mistakes it is just a matter of frequency and degree that vary, what I hope for is that other drivers will have the skill and attitude to stop that mistake from becoming a drama. I just try to do my bit.

ed_m wrote:
and i worry that some people are so highly strung that this kind of road rage response is considered 'normal'.


When traffic gets to the point that you are averaging 2mph then I think tempers start to fray, the sheer frustration can make the slightest loss of forward movement irritating and politeness goes out of the window because giving someone else an inch means three other vehicle will take a mile. Having a passenger to talk to, air con and no fixed arrival time helps, however as the situation becomes more competitive and less cooperative I think it is just human nature for tempers to fray. I think it takes a positive act of will and perhaps experience to stay cool or more importantly recognise when your state of mind is degrading and rein back exaggerated reactions. In more normal driving situations many drivers are in a raised state of stress and do not recognise their own mental state, if they are also the kind of driver that is more likely to be surprised by other road users actions or see driving as a competition then extreme reactions are to be expected. It worries me that most drivers are just left to learn about how their mental state affects their driving and how to manage it effectively, many probably never do.

Is this drifting too far off topic btw?

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 15:32 
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Quote:
When traffic gets to the point that you are averaging 2mph


That wasn't the case here though.

I admit, I have often given out some pretty blue language sometimes, but never gestures. I don't see the point, and berating learners won't get anyone anywhere, a near miss is often enough to scare them to be more careful next time, if they were at fault in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 15:47 
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Pratnership wrote:
Quote:
When traffic gets to the point that you are averaging 2mph


That wasn't the case here though.



I know, I was responding to a more general comment on road rage and you will note my comment about topic drift? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 15:58 
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Yup, it was because of your comment about it being off topic that I put it :P

Road rage is becoming more commonplace in my expirence. Is it the increasing numbers of drivers on the roads, or is it actually increasing anyway?

One thing I do see for sure, is the number of excuses increasing when there is no justifacation.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 08:37 
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toltec wrote:
Given Teabelly's point it would be interesting to hear exactly what Squirrel thought and did when he first saw her and on the approach before she pulled out.


Saw her, lifted (was on a bend so not tanking it) and let engine braking take a bit of speed off whilst covering the brake pedal.

Observed her look left then right then left again.

Saw her front wheels start to turn and began to brake.

Saw her front wheels continue to turn and sounded the horn and flashed the headlights (long flash to say "I am here", not a quick flick to say "pull out").

Saw her continue to pull out regardless and went from gentle braking to hard braking.

Stopped well clear of her. She made eye contact at this point, I instinctively shook my head and put my hands out in a "what the hell was that all about?" gesture.

With hindsight it's possible that the headlamp flash was misinterpreted as as "go ahead" signal rather than "I am here".

Quote:
I wonder is L plates on the side of a car would be useful?


Most definitely!

It's worth re-iterating that she wasn't in an instructor's car, looked like her father giving her a lesson so no dual controls, no L-plates on the side/top of the car etc.

For Pratnership's benefit this happened at the Round House, she was turning out of the Bradley Green road onto New Road (B4058), I was heading back into Wotton just after the Renishaw bends.

Also for Pratnership's benefit would you stop quoting me out of context to make me look bad. This forum (this section in particular) is for serious discussion. Comments made in jest on other forums or other sections have no place here.

Quote:
Road rage is becoming more commonplace in my expirence. Is it the increasing numbers of drivers on the roads, or is it actually increasing anyway?


It's a side effect of the one-horse race that is now road safety. "It's ok because I wasn't breaking the speed limit."

Every incident, every near-miss and almost every frayed nerve is something one can learn from. That's why I post things in here so often. It's called "peer review".

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:28 
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Squirrel wrote:
...Stopped well clear of her...
With hindsight it's possible that the headlamp flash was misinterpreted as as "go ahead" signal rather than "I am here".

Quote:

Sounds like you did what you needed to do, also the father(?) should have told her to stop by the sound of it. If you were sounding the horn then the light flash should not have been seen as a go ahead!

Squirrel wrote:
It's worth re-iterating that she wasn't in an instructor's car, looked like her father giving her a lesson so no dual controls, no L-plates on the side/top of the car etc.


The problem is while instruction in dual control cars may provide the safety the value of extra driving experience gained from informal instruction cannot be ignored.



Quote:
Road rage is becoming more commonplace in my expirence. Is it the increasing numbers of drivers on the roads, or is it actually increasing anyway?


I am not sure I agree with this Pratnership, at least no drivers direct any my way that I have noticed recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:03 
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HC110 says that flashing headlights should only be used to let other road user know that you are there. But there is such widespread acceptance of their use to indicate a willingness to yield priority that I never flash my headlights as a warning. It is far too likely to misinterpreted which is what I suspect happened to OP. Of course you are completely free of blame if it is misinterpreted - but you may still be dead :(

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:18 
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It's a side effect of the one-horse race that is now road safety. "It's ok because I wasn't breaking the speed limit."


I completely disgaree, how does that make people more prone to road rage?

In almost all of my expirences of road rage, it's down to one thing - someone being held up.

It's always annoying being held up, but some people just cannot bear it, and given enough time, they start acting dangerously.

I grow very tired of the excuse (especially on here - some people need to re-evaluate their driving) that the slower (slower, not nessacarily slow) driver was to blame.

Quote:
Also for Pratnership's benefit would you stop quoting me out of context to make me look bad. This forum (this section in particular) is for serious discussion. Comments made in jest on other forums or other sections have no place here.


This forum is indeed serious. And I am deadly serious. None of the quotes are out of context. it's the same bit of road, which by various post on here you admit to driving fast on. I think it's very much an issue in which you should examine if you are driving too fast for the conditions.

You would have done well to give all these extra details in your first post, instead of adding them later. It does change the way people can evaluate the situation if you actually started slowing down and flashed her as she was moving out.

One thing not clear to me. Why was an emergency stop needed when you had already seen her pulling out and had time to alert her that you were there?


Toltec, on a very bad roundabout (a white blob in the middle of a very busy town with 4 'exits') I am gradually seeing more and more incidents of it. Looking at the people the anger seems to be getting worse and worse. Most of it is down to people just not indicating.

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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:24 
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You flashed. She pulled out thinking you were letting her out. Headlight flash is often interpreted as course you can pull out when it may not mean that in the head of those flashing their lights. Think you scored an own goal there. I wouldn't flash a headlight as a warning to someone pulling out like that as they will very often misinterpret. Horn is never misunderstood in the same way. It always says 'oy, I'm here, don't even think about it!'. Deafness and loud music notwithstanding....


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 Post subject: Re: Damned learners!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 17:13 
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teabelly wrote:
You flashed. She pulled out thinking you were letting her out. Headlight flash is often interpreted as course you can pull out when it may not mean that in the head of those flashing their lights. Think you scored an own goal there. I wouldn't flash a headlight as a warning to someone pulling out like that as they will very often misinterpret. Horn is never misunderstood in the same way. It always says 'oy, I'm here, don't even think about it!'. Deafness and loud music notwithstanding....


I think I flashed. I definitely sounded a long horn note.

Pratnership wrote:
it's the same bit of road, which by various post on here you admit to driving fast on.


No. It's a different bit of road. You're thinking of the un-numbered road between the B4058 from the Horsley turn to the B4066 at the Frocester Hill crossroads; ie the Cockadilly road. Yes, I will admit that I do tend to drive very fast down that stretch of road - when conditions permit.

I don't however drive fast on the B4058 past the Renishaw bends coming back into Wotton - as the sight lines are poor. (Admittedly late at night it's possible to flick the tail out coming off the Renishaw roundabout and go sideways round the first bend... but as an IaM member I couldn't possibly condone such actions... *grins* )

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