Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Thu Jul 09, 2020 21:26

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 18:00 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
Cranky Trucker wrote:
....
In this senerio the way i see it a car pulls in front of you into a virtually none excistant space. You have 3 options:-
1 Brake Hard
2 swerve around them
3 Hit them

I'll come back to these in a moment. Meanwhile, PRIOR to getting to this three-cornered decision, as a professional driver, there is a duty of care on the driver of the lorry to be sure that he can pull up in the distance he knows to be clear. This includes paying heed to those on sliproads - and I'm not talking when almost alongside, I'm referring to the 5 - 10 second (or more) build up to the pinch point. Arguably a lorry driver with a high vantage point has an even greater time in which to monitor imbecillic slip road behaviour than car drivers would.

Cranky Trucker wrote:
If you take option 1 you have to hope that all the vehicles behind you are gonna be able to do the same without slamming into the back of you or having to take actions which could lead to another accident.

If anyone goes into the back of you, that is their fault for being too close. Even if they were a little too close for comfort, their own observations should give them a clue that you might have to anchor up thanks to imbeciles forcing their way out from the on-slip. Are you suggesting that you would find it less bad for a possible shunt into the rear of your cab by someone who may or may not be there (and whose fault at law it would clearly be if it happened), with the probable airbag cushion and other typical secondary safety survival paraphernalia that cars are equipped with these days to you rearending a car, possibly resulting in whiplash or sending the hit vehicle into other lanes?

Cranky Trucker wrote:
If you take option 2 you have to hope you dont loose control which is quite likely at speed and that there is no-one at the side of you ( which if you are a decent driver and are doing you mirror checks you should have a rough idea wether there is or not )

Agreed. Unless you know you are clear to do this (which is worth a second quick glance as a middle-laner may have spotted the dilemma and made you room), and you are also confident you can do so without risk of a speed wobble or tail-out scenario, this one is best avoided.

Cranky Trucker wrote:
Option 3 is self explanatory. Now because you are both going in the same direction and at roughly the same speed the impact is going to be a lot less than someone hitting something thats is stationary or under heavy braking.

I restate - early moderate braking is better than anchoring up. However, anchoring up - without jack-knifing of course - is way preferable to ploughing into someone. You have a lot of momentum in one of the rigs, and you scrubbing off at, say, 0.5g is reducing collision energies dramatically

Cranky Trucker wrote:
That is your options. Option 1 + 2 will prevent you from hitting the idiot but increase the likelyhood of getting someone else hurt.

I disagree. If a lorry driver knows he is being tailgated I contend that, as a professional driver, he should be driving even more defensively approaching pinch points. Early braking means that Option 1 is feasible as it will have preempted the tailgater's beetle crusher to the brake.

Cranky Trucker wrote:
Option 3 may result in the idiot getting hurt but there is a little less chance of someone else getting hurt too although you are right its not guarenteed.
...

sorry - I disagree with this too. You'll still have to brake hard if you hit him - and then you may beconme the meat in the sandwich.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:00 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Cranky Trucker wrote:
Quote:
Nice theory (?). But in practice you don't get the chance to decide who will suffer. When it's all going wrong anything can happen - or in other words, crashes are extremely unpredictable and uncontrollable.


Yes there is always a chance that other people are going to get caught up in it. Thats is unavoidable and totally out of your control but you can minimise it.

In this senerio the way i see it a car pulls in front of you into a virtually none excistant space. You have 3 options:-
1 Brake Hard
2 swerve around them
3 Hit them


Option 4, as Roger has explained, is to take action much earlier.

The way I see it is this:

1) You believe that the idiot should suffer the consequences of his actions.

2) Therefore you seem to be telling us that you might delay your possible actions in making it safer because if it goes wrong 'it's the idiot's fault'.

3) So I said, 'nice theory', but pointed out that crash outcomes are completely unpredictable.

So I reckon we're right back to the start of the thread. We can't trust other drivers. We can't trust fate to punish the other chap and leave everyone else out. So the proper action is to suspend overtaking near on slips and include slip road traffic in the plan. That way you'll be braking long before he's getting in front of you.

I know I'm being a bit hard on you here, but please be 100% assured that I'm doing my very best to help.

[edited to fix a 'can' to a 'can't'. Doh! ]

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Last edited by SafeSpeed on Sun Apr 23, 2006 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 22:08 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
Quote:
I know I'm being a bit hard on you here, but please be 100% assured that I'm doing my very best to help.


Me too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 22:49 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
And I'd like to add my voice to assure truckers on this site that many car drivers (not enough, admittedly) do understand some of the problems you face. I have no problems with truckers - at all. I try to drive with consideration for truckers and, almost invariably, it's repaid. Mutual respect - no problems.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 23:03 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Observer wrote:
And I'd like to add my voice to assure truckers on this site that many car drivers (not enough, admittedly) do understand some of the problems you face. I have no problems with truckers - at all. I try to drive with consideration for truckers and, almost invariably, it's repaid. Mutual respect - no problems.


Absolutely. And it's not as if it's difficult - give 'em room and don't hide in their blind spots.

But most drivers haven't even heard simple tips about it in an entire driving lifetime.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 23:13 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
It cuts both ways...

I had to back off for more elephant races than I can remember on any previous journey tonight coming back from Kent (A20/M20/M25). Ok - I was perhaps leaving more conservative gaps than most - asking for such treatment? Probably!

I know the real answer - scrap the poxy speed limiters. However, until then.... is it *really* worth an overtake to gain less than 1 mph?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 23:13 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
I think we (thinking car drivers) also understand, and should acknowledge with humility, that it's much easier for us to make allowances for bad driving than it is for the driver of a 40 ton truck. I have no direct experience but I'm certain that the driving standard required of a truck driver to safely negotiate commonplace hazards is much higher than that required of a car driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 23:16 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
Roger wrote:
.. is it *really* worth an overtake to gain less than 1 mph?


Not sure if you can answer that until you've done the job.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 06:14 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 01:59
Posts: 137
Location: Wolverhamptom (exiled Yorkshireman)
Roger wrote:
elephant races
:lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 20:54 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
Roger wrote:
is it *really* worth an overtake to gain less than 1 mph?


That depends how many hours you are driving for.

It's "only" a mile if you are driving for an hour.

But it could make the difference between getting to your destination or having to take a rest break if you are on a tacho.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 21:24 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
Homer wrote:
Roger wrote:
is it *really* worth an overtake to gain less than 1 mph?


That depends how many hours you are driving for.

It's "only" a mile if you are driving for an hour.

But it could make the difference between getting to your destination or having to take a rest break if you are on a tacho.


I disagree. You'll only lose a minute if you follow (instead of overtaking) for a full hour. However, somewhere in the 50 odd miles of following an opportunity will likely present itself to allow an elephant race - or maybe build a greater differential speed... The chances of being stuck involuntarily in an elephant train for that length of time must be much lower.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 22:55 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 01:59
Posts: 137
Location: Wolverhamptom (exiled Yorkshireman)
To be honest, the guy to get annoyed with is the one being overtaken. If your limiter is set very slightly faster than someone else's, you will, sooner or later, overtake them, because it's very hard to sit a safe distance behind them for miles and miles when you are going that bit faster. You really need to have done the job to get exactly what I mean there. However, if I find I am being overtaken by someone going 1 mph faster than me, I knock my cruise control off for a bit (having first checked my mirrors, obviously), slow down to about 50 and flash the overtaking elephant in when he's a reasonable way past. If we all did that, no one would notice us holding the traffic up and we wouldn't be faced with overtaking bans on the M42.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 23:16 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Rhythm Thief wrote:
To be honest, the guy to get annoyed with is the one being overtaken. If your limiter is set very slightly faster than someone else's, you will, sooner or later, overtake them, because it's very hard to sit a safe distance behind them for miles and miles when you are going that bit faster. You really need to have done the job to get exactly what I mean there. However, if I find I am being overtaken by someone going 1 mph faster than me, I knock my cruise control off for a bit (having first checked my mirrors, obviously), slow down to about 50 and flash the overtaking elephant in when he's a reasonable way past. If we all did that, no one would notice us holding the traffic up and we wouldn't be faced with overtaking bans on the M42.


:yesyes: :clap:

And get annoyed with the EU, of course, for the speed limiters.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:00 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:52
Posts: 947
Location: falkirk
Rhythm Thief wrote:
Roger wrote:
elephant races
:lol: :lol:


was that refering to the trucks or the drivers? :lol:

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 19:48 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 14:00
Posts: 1272
Location: Near Telford, UK / Barcelona, Spain
scanny77 wrote:
Rhythm Thief wrote:
Roger wrote:
elephant races
:lol: :lol:


was that refering to the trucks or the drivers? :lol:

... if the cap fits... :lol:

(or should that be "enormous baggy trousers"?) :twisted:

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 20:31 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rhythm Thief wrote:
To be honest, the guy to get annoyed with is the one being overtaken. If your limiter is set very slightly faster than someone else's, you will, sooner or later, overtake them, because it's very hard to sit a safe distance behind them for miles and miles when you are going that bit faster. You really need to have done the job to get exactly what I mean there. However, if I find I am being overtaken by someone going 1 mph faster than me, I knock my cruise control off for a bit (having first checked my mirrors, obviously), slow down to about 50 and flash the overtaking elephant in when he's a reasonable way past. If we all did that, no one would notice us holding the traffic up and we wouldn't be faced with overtaking bans on the M42.


:yesyes: :clap:

And get annoyed with the EU, of course, for the speed limiters.


Absolutely yes, RT. :yesyes: :clap: :clap:

Thje overtaken lorry will lose only a matter of a few seconds (and probably a tablespoon or two of DERV) doing this, yet s/he saves sooo much frustration in both the poor sod doing his best to get past and the train of mixed vehicles he has inevitably acquired as a tail.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.338s | 14 Queries | GZIP : Off ]