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 Post subject: Petition response
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 01:14 
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Received this in my inbox:

Quote:
17 January 2007

We received a petition asking:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to freeze all speeding fines levied against motorcyclists until such time that the Government tests and approves all speed detection equipment for use specifically on motorcycles."

Quote:
Speed measuring devices used by the police to produce evidence for court have to be of a type approved by the Secretary of State. The UK "type-approval" process is extremely rigorous and involves both operational and laboratory testing. Details of the type approval process are laid down in the Speedmeter Handbook, available on the Home Office website:

* Police equipment and technology (opens in new window)

It is probably the most rigorous process of its kind in the world, and is very highly regarded. Manufacturers selling their equipment in other countries are keen to proclaim its UK type-approved status. The Home Secretary only type approves devices that highly qualified and experienced Home Office scientific advisers are satisfied have passed the demanding requirements of the type approval process.

We should explain the two stages of the type approval system which all speed measuring devices must successfully complete before they can be used by the police for enforcement. The equipment is initially tested by the police as if in full operational use although, of course, no prosecutions are brought during the testing period. Once the police are satisfied that devices are of a sufficient standard to meet their needs the responsibility for testing passes to the Home Office Scientific Development Branch (HOSDB).

HOSDB's requirements cover such issues as storage, operating temperatures, portability, durability, weather proofing, and electro-magnetic compatibility as well as obvious matters such as accuracy and reliability. Independent scientific test houses carry out the testing. Only when a device has passed all these tests will a type approval Order be signed so that the police can use it for prosecution.

There is no condition on the type approval of any enforcement device that it cannot be used on motorcycles. HOSDB do not carry out specific tests of speed measuring devices on motorcycles as there are no technical reasons to believe they present new technical challenges not present with all other types of vehicle. The type approval process does however include, as well as laboratory tests of compliance with specifications, extensive operational trials by the police. In these all vehicles on the road are tested, including motorcycles.

We are satisfied that all devices currently in use merit their type-approved status and irrespective of the type of vehicle detected exceeding the speed limit, if they are used in line with any conditions laid down in their type approval order, with the manufacturers' instructions and with ACPO's Road Policing Enforcement Technology Code of Practice for Operation Use, they can be relied on to produce accurate readings.

Given this thorough approach to testing, the Government does not believe that there are grounds for freezing speeding fines levied against motorcyclists until speed detection equipment has been tested and approved by an independent body for use on motorcycles.


What an utter fob off!

"You may be worried about it, we're not, run along now"


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 Post subject: Re: Petition response
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 06:25 
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RobinXe wrote:
Received this in my inbox:


Who sent it Robin?

RobinXe wrote:
Quote:
17 January 2007

We are satisfied that all devices currently in use merit their type-approved status and irrespective of the type of vehicle detected exceeding the speed limit, if they are used in line with any conditions laid down in their type approval order, with the manufacturers' instructions and with ACPO's Road Policing Enforcement Technology Code of Practice for Operation Use, they can be relied on to produce accurate readings.



This paragraph is very interesting indeed.

Clearly they are accepting the possibility of regular errors, because obviously these highly precise conditions are not always followed sufficiently precisely.

The 'we are satisfied' is pretty interesting too. It is argument by assertion. They want us to share in their faith.

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Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 08:33 
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Quote:
There is no condition on the type approval of any enforcement device that it cannot be used on motorcycles. HOSDB do not carry out specific tests of speed measuring devices on motorcycles as there are no technical reasons to believe they present new technical challenges not present with all other types of vehicle. The type approval process does however include, as well as laboratory tests of compliance with specifications, extensive operational trials by the police. In these all vehicles on the road are tested, including motorcycles.
other than motorcycles being round and curvey and thin rather than a car which by compason is thicker and flat?


Steve farrel of motorcycle news championed the petition but I cant remember who actually set it up.

Edit: See Pepipoo thread... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?sho ... otorcycles

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:48 
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This really sticks in my throat. :furious:

I have played around with my speed and position on the road when approaching one of those flashing speed signs on my bike. I have manage to exceed the speed limit and not have the sign flash at me and also have the sign flash at me when under the speed limit.

Even if a laser was aimed at the number plate, due to the vibration caused, I doubt if an accurate reading would be achieved. I have also spoken to one biker who was given a speeding ticket who was told, when he challenged it, that the reading was taken by aiming at his rucksack :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 13:51 
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Was sent by the PM's office.

It certainly doesn't do a thing to deal with the issues raised in the petition, nor provide any new information to alleviate our fears, it merely poo-poos our concerns because the powers that be do not share them. These policymakers are certainly not experts in the field, probably do not even understand the issues unique to bikes, and don't care, having never ridden in their lives and having no intention to!

Independent research is always an option, but didn't they poo-poo some done a while back because the equipment used was not identical to the UK variant, while notably not volunteering a set of their own equipment for testing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 14:14 
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R1Nut wrote:
Even if a laser was aimed at the number plate, due to the vibration caused, I doubt if an accurate reading would be achieved.


Not to mention the fact that not all numberplates are centrally mounted or vertical. :x

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 18:29 
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RobinXe wrote:
having never ridden in their lives and having no intention to!


That is until said MP hits a mid life crisis, realises that the salary they are paid can easily cover the biggest bikes going and subsequently get caught on the way to see the woman with whom they're having an affair with.

Not that I am at all cynical about the powers that be.


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