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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 14:31 
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Icandoit wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Icandoit wrote:
What about the use of lights as camouflage and distraction?

You might want to look http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 45&start=0

I believe I am aware of most of the arguments about this topic.

I was asking you, perhaps rather obtusely, what you think about the problems that can be caused when trying to 'make sure they are easily visible'.

Personally, I don't use lights as camouflage - I use them as an aid to being seen, but I am aware of the camouflage effect, as I'm also aware of motion camouflage. And if lights are a distraction (presumably to the car driver) then they have served their purpose, because the car driver has seen me.

I believe they cause fewer problems than riding without them.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 14:36 
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R1Nut wrote:
No I don't because there is no choice. It's the law. DRL is a choice, there is no law.

You don't question the use of speed cameras because there is no choice?

Am I in the right place? Isn't this the forum for Safe Speed - 'Arguing for the wider use of safe speeds without the excessive emphasis on speed limits.'


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 14:39 
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BottyBurp wrote:
I believe they cause fewer problems than riding without them.

Are you sure? :wink:
BottyBurp wrote:
I flashed my main beam loads and loads of time to try and attract his attention to the fact that I was there. Eventually he noticed me and corrected his veering across lanes.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 14:43 
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Icandoit wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
I believe they cause fewer problems than riding without them.

Are you sure? :wink:
BottyBurp wrote:
I flashed my main beam loads and loads of time to try and attract his attention to the fact that I was there. Eventually he noticed me and corrected his veering across lanes.

Yes.

And nice try, but I also said in an earlier post:
BB wrote:
Because unfortunately, our roads are infested with complete ar$eholes who refuse to look properly!

Bikers can only do so much to make sure they are easily visible

I believe bikers have to make themselves as visible as possible. There is no guarantee that they will be seen!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 14:56 
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Sorry, I was too terse in my response.

No I don't accept that just because some people want speed cameras that they are acceptable because they are law. Therefore there is no choice.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 15:14 
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RIDING IN A BAD MOOD.
Riding across Coventry is usually enough to get me frustrated/annoyed/angry or all 3 and glad to get out of the horrible mess that is the general standard of driving. Before we moved here, my dad warned me, as he'd been travelling the country for 15 years servicing quarry plant, that Coventry has about the worse standard of driving anywhere. 20 years later and he's still right.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 15:21 
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BottyBurp wrote:
I believe bikers have to make themselves as visible as possible. There is no guarantee that they will be seen!

The difference between us is that I believe we are already perfectly visible (in daylight) and that lights, day-glo and the like can only, on occasion, make us less visible.

When we are seen, we are seen. We don't need to 'do' anything.

If we are not seen it isn't our 'fault' for not using any (particular) device at the time. But it is still our responsibility not to ride into an accident and that once you absolve some responsibility onto other road users to see you, I think that you actually increase your chances of having one.

As you have noticed 'our roads are infested with complete ar$eholes who refuse to look properly' yet I ride without headlights in daylight and (like my friend with his now fixed Triumph) seem to avoid ROWV's, while many other riders seem to have them. Something happened to my friend, a highly experienced rider, on his new Triumph with and without DRL and that was just the use (or not) of the DRL alone.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 16:35 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Definately sounds like FJSRIDER... :roll:

Oooh, is my mate Ian back? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 16:43 
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Gixxer wrote:
Sixy_the_red wrote:
Definately sounds like FJSRIDER... :roll:

Oooh, is my mate Ian back? :lol:


Nah.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 16:45 
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Icandoit wrote:
Am I in the right place? Isn't this the forum for Safe Speed - 'Arguing for the wider use of safe speeds without the excessive emphasis on speed limits.'


You are most certainly in the right place. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 16:49 
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Icandoit wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
I believe bikers have to make themselves as visible as possible. There is no guarantee that they will be seen!

The difference between us is that I believe we are already perfectly visible (in daylight) and that lights, day-glo and the like can only, on occasion, make us less visible.

When we are seen, we are seen. We don't need to 'do' anything.

If we are not seen it isn't our 'fault' for not using any (particular) device at the time.

There is no difference between us in that I agree 100% that we are already visible. If drivers looked! Part of my responsibility, knowing that drivers don't look properly, is to use a mixture of tools available to me (hi-vis clothing, DRL's etc) to 'help' drivers spot me.

And yes, if we're not seen, it's not our fault. But that's not much consolation to me if I've just been had off my bike...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 17:10 
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all valid points but insurance companies should take this advice "Let the rider decide". I know when I need headlights on, and vice versa. It's not law to have them on permanently, so what's the point in arguing about it. I thought this topic was about riding in a bad mood, instead it seems you're all building up here so you can go out and ride in a bad mood so you'll have an opinion appropriate to the topic.
I've not had a smidsy in years, maybe down to my riding style. who knows. More education for existing drivers is needed. the hazard perception test isn't going to affect already established drivers, so we're stuck with the old school drivers for a long time yet. If you feel safer with lights on, fantastic, if you don't use DRL's that should be fine too. shouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 13:18 
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covmike wrote:
all valid points but insurance companies should take this advice "Let the rider decide". I know when I need headlights on, and vice versa. It's not law to have them on permanently, so what's the point in arguing about it. I thought this topic was about riding in a bad mood, instead it seems you're all building up here so you can go out and ride in a bad mood so you'll have an opinion appropriate to the topic.
I've not had a smidsy in years, maybe down to my riding style. who knows. More education for existing drivers is needed. the hazard perception test isn't going to affect already established drivers, so we're stuck with the old school drivers for a long time yet. If you feel safer with lights on, fantastic, if you don't use DRL's that should be fine too. shouldn't it?


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 14:49 
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No apologies for dragging this thing off-topic again. I find this ‘visibility’ thing very interesting and was really hoping/expecting the discussion to extend beyond lights & clothing.

Obviously, we can’t ride around with the belief that we are invisible – if that were the case, we’d be scampering about like frightened chickens. We must aim to ride as if we have been seen, but plan our ride in case we haven’t.

But we can’t leave the ‘being seen’ bit to fate, can we?

Icandoit wrote:
When we are seen, we are seen. We don't need to 'do' anything.

If we are not seen it isn't our 'fault' for not using any (particular) device at the time. But it is still our responsibility not to ride into an accident


Sure, it’s our responsibility to avoid the accident, but that must include our responsibility to do all we can to be seen. It may well be our ‘fault’ if we didn’t try harder to be seen, and the argument can’t end with the ‘lights on or off ’ decision, can it?

R1nut wrote:
I have ridden with the lights on and off and have discovered that when filtering through traffic I tend to get seen better if I have my lights on.


But do you ride any differently whether or not you have your lights on?

BottyBurp wrote:
Part of my responsibility, knowing that drivers don't look properly, is to use a mixture of tools available to me (hi-vis clothing, DRL's etc) to 'help' drivers spot me.


I’d love to know about your ‘et ceteras’.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 14:57 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Part of my responsibility, knowing that drivers don't look properly, is to use a mixture of tools available to me (hi-vis clothing, DRL's etc) to 'help' drivers spot me.


I’d love to know about your ‘et ceteras’.


There's noise, of course. Quite a few bikers swear that louder exhausts help. The horn may be appropriate from time to time.

Track might be quite important too. Some of the SMIDSY reports seem to indicate that a 'straight loom' aids invisibility no end.

And I'd warn every biker to BE ALARMED whenever the driver's face is even partly behind an A pillar.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:00 
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COAST, experience, positioning, engine revs to name the first few that come to mind...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:01 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
There's noise, of course. Quite a few bikers swear that louder exhausts help. The horn may be appropriate from time to time.

Track might be quite important too. Some of the SMIDSY reports seem to indicate that a 'straight loom' aids invisibility no end.

And I'd warn every biker to BE ALARMED whenever the driver's face is even partly behind an A pillar.


Hey, you’re prompting now!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:05 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
There's noise, of course. Quite a few bikers swear that louder exhausts help. The horn may be appropriate from time to time.

Track might be quite important too. Some of the SMIDSY reports seem to indicate that a 'straight loom' aids invisibility no end.

And I'd warn every biker to BE ALARMED whenever the driver's face is even partly behind an A pillar.


Hey, you’re prompting now!


SORRY! Was Bottyburp sitting the Grumpy exam? I didn't know. :hehe:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:06 
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BottyBurp wrote:
COAST, experience, positioning, engine revs to name the first few that come to mind...


And do you ever reach that point when you know you've been seen?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 15:09 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
COAST, experience, positioning, engine revs to name the first few that come to mind...


And do you ever reach that point when you know you've been seen?

Nope.

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