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 Post subject: double standards
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 15:39 
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How can we improve the safety perception of motorcycles ?

My Mother in law lost her brother in a motorcycle accident many years ago and has forbade any of her children getting a motorbike.

Her Husband was killed in a car accident and my wife is in a wheelchair after a horse riding accident.

but everyone is still allowed to drive a car and ride horses . :?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 15:42 
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blimey what an unfortunate family...

I totally agree. if a cyclist crashes its usually thought to be the other driver at fault, car crashes are a fact of life. Even getting run over is seen as unlucky..

but motorcycles are dangerous - everyone knows that - so its your own stupid fault. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 16:37 
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diy wrote:
blimey what an unfortunate family...



It sounds worse than it is really . we are talking over a 50-60 year span here so most families would lose a couple of members over that period through accidents and natural causes.


I just seems that bikers are expected to be in the fast lane to the pearly gates :angel: or worse :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 18:28 
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There's not much that you can do right now that will change her mind, but if you're thinking about getting into bikes you could take her along to your local bike school and let her see some of the instruction and talk to some of the staff there. They might be able to allay some of her fears as they'll all have been riding for years and are still here...

If you really do want to learn to ride get it done before October 2008. The test is changing then and it's going to become a lot more complicated, and expensive, to get a bike licence.

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 00:11 
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hampshireian wrote:
How can we improve the safety perception of motorcycles ?


It's all about comparing apples to oranges.

The perception is mainly founded on the statistic which shows deaths per mile travelled are 30 times higher for bikers than for car occupants.

But I bet (well they might be; it sounds reasonable :) ) that deaths are 30 times more likely from hill walking holidays compared to lying in the sun holidays.

I'd suggest that there's no sound basis for the authorities to compare car safety to motorbike safety. They are apples and oranges.

What we really need to consider is how the risk values are changing.

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 07:43 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
What we really need to consider is how the risk values are changing.

Or who is affected and why.

There has been a UK study that (apparently) shows that riders of sports bikes are over represented in the KSI figures, but I have not managed to find a copy of the whole report to read. Titled 'Understanding potential variances in attitude, risk and behaviour of motorcyclists that may lead to fatal collisions' Simon Labatt November 2003

It was mentioned in Bike Magazines feature on 'Dangers' last October. They wrote "...what kinds of bike were involved in all 55 fatal accidents in Sussex between 2000 and 2003 - something not recorded in the standard police process. The results were staggering. Of the 55 fatalities, 37 occurred on sportsbikes – Blades, RIs, GSX-Rs and the like. Another 11 were on sports tourers - Blackbirds, VFRs and Fazers. Just two commuter riders died, with one fatal crash on a tourer and one on a retro. And in more than nine out of ten of all these deaths, rider error - usually excessive speed - was the main cause of the crash." They also said "'The main time is July to September,' notes Simon drily. 'Male, 25-44, sportsbike, good weather, weekend, dry country road, 60mph limit, rider error, speed a factor. That's the hallmark of who is likely to die.'"

However the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety in the USA has recently published a report that suggests much the same. Supersport motorcycles accounted for 28% of deaths of motorcycle riders in 2005. Yet in that year those bikes accounted for about 9% of motorcycle registrations. IIHS report.


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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:35 
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Icandoit wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
What we really need to consider is how the risk values are changing.

Or who is affected and why.

...

It was mentioned in Bike Magazines feature on 'Dangers' last October. They wrote "...what kinds of bike were involved in all 55 fatal accidents in Sussex between 2000 and 2003 - something not recorded in the standard police process. The results were staggering. Of the 55 fatalities, 37 occurred on sportsbikes – Blades, RIs, GSX-Rs and the like. Another 11 were on sports tourers - Blackbirds, VFRs and Fazers. Just two commuter riders died, with one fatal crash on a tourer and one on a retro. And in more than nine out of ten of all these deaths, rider error - usually excessive speed - was the main cause of the crash." They also said "'The main time is July to September,' notes Simon drily. 'Male, 25-44, sportsbike, good weather, weekend, dry country road, 60mph limit, rider error, speed a factor. That's the hallmark of who is likely to die.'"


I suspect fair-weather weekend warriors who bought the bikes as toys.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 07:55 
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Not to mention that the "30 times more likely statistic" is derived from an estimate of motorcycle mileage, along with the "1% of traffic statistic".

Basically they get OAPs to stand on key roads and bridges at certain times of the day and year and then mass up the numbers to get the national estimate.

This of course works fine for truck and cars, which are sufficient in numbers that this sample is probably valid, but it does not work for vehicles with a very high time, day and seasonal variation. A better estimate is close to 3% and at high risk times its closer to 10-15% (sunday afternoon in the summer). which could mean that motorcylists are only 3 times more likely to be killed.

Got to be careful with stats otherwise bikers will think they are safest riding at 5AM in January in snow and ice. Statistically the lowest accident risk for motorcyclists. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 09:37 
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diy wrote:
Basically they get OAPs to stand on key roads and bridges at certain times of the day and year and then mass up the numbers to get the national estimate.


I agree with your description of the method - but I thought that times and places were a balanced randomised sample. Obviously there's room for some bias, but I thought the figures were pretty good.

Do you have evidence or documentation regarding the bias that you are telling us about?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 17:27 
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I believe that this is one group where education can make a massive difference.

Many bikers ride infrequently, and thus do not amass experience at any great rate. In the year that I commuted between Leuchars and Oxford on my trusty VFR (mentioned in the statistics :D) I probably experienced as much saddle-time as a 'born-again' will see in ten years, through conditions and traffic situations they are never likely to see. The only way to mitigate this lack of experience in any fashion is additional training.

I was told during my advanced motorcycle training that most offs where there is no third party directly involved result from the rider exceeding their own limits, rather than the bike's (bottling it in a tight corner at speed and sitting it up into a high-side for example). If those bikers had better understood their machines, and how to ride them to the optimum, then they would still be with us.

No doubt someone will chirp up and say they should have been driving within their capabilities, but even knowing one's own capabilities, without experimentation that can go wrong, is through more training. Surely noone deserves to die for exceeding their own capabilities, so the answer has to be additional training, not 'SPEED KILLS' thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 17:24 
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hampshireian wrote:
How can we improve the safety perception of motorcycles ?

My Mother in law lost her brother in a motorcycle accident many years ago and has forbade any of her children getting a motorbike.

Her Husband was killed in a car accident and my wife is in a wheelchair after a horse riding accident.

but everyone is still allowed to drive a car and ride horses . :?


One of the hardest things to do is to change peoples perceptions. Bikes get all the bad publicity nowadays and sadly its due to the increase in number on the roads and the fact that the deaths are not only a high % of that road user group but are highly publicised. Yet the biggest killer by far is on 4 wheels not 2. I remember a local news report some time ago about the number of dead so far on the county roads ( I believe the figure was about 17 at the time) they quickly went strait to the fact that 4 were bikers then went on commenting about police focus on bikes which took everyones focus away from the 13 killed in cars or by cars. Statistically bikes are dangerous, numerically cars are more dangerous. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 21:20 
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I was talking to a chap on a 'busa last week who was telling me how his brother was killed on his bike commuting, upon further discussion, it transpired he was doing a wheelie at the time just going past a t-junction... :shock: Still has my sympathy, but you have to wonder. :?

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 22:58 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
hampshireian wrote:
How can we improve the safety perception of motorcycles ?


It's all about comparing apples to oranges.

The perception is mainly founded on the statistic which shows deaths per mile travelled are 30 times higher for bikers than for car occupants.

But I bet (well they might be; it sounds reasonable :) ) that deaths are 30 times more likely from hill walking holidays compared to lying in the sun holidays.

I'd suggest that there's no sound basis for the authorities to compare car safety to motorbike safety. They are apples and oranges.

What we really need to consider is how the risk values are changing.

Well put!


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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 16:01 
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Herbie J wrote:
One of the hardest things to do is to change peoples perceptions. Bikes get all the bad publicity nowadays and sadly its due to the increase in number on the roads and the fact that the deaths are not only a high % of that road user group but are highly publicised. Yet the biggest killer by far is on 4 wheels not 2. I remember a local news report some time ago about the number of dead so far on the county roads ( I believe the figure was about 17 at the time) they quickly went strait to the fact that 4 were bikers then went on commenting about police focus on bikes which took everyones focus away from the 13 killed in cars or by cars. Statistically bikes are dangerous, numerically cars are more dangerous. :roll:

Yeah I had a feeling you were going to get a dig in against cars, should have thought as much :roll: The reason is probably because there are more cars than motorbikes. And can't you motorcycle guys just stop attacking cars for once!? :x :x :x Car drivers and bike riders both have engines which the government seems to be venemently against; we should bloody well team up for christ's sake! Car enthusiasts appreciate enjoying driving just like riders enjoy riding, we have much in common, stop being foolish by fighting with people who have similar interests to yourself as a biker.

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 13:40 
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Flynn wrote:
Car drivers and bike riders both have engines which the government seems to be venemently against; we should bloody well team up for christ's sake! Car enthusiasts appreciate enjoying driving just like riders enjoy riding, we have much in common, stop being foolish by fighting with people who have similar interests to yourself as a biker.


Hear hear, appreciate the sentiment, but honestly there are car drivers out there who are just like some scooter pilots - their cars are just a means of transport, they have no interest in improving their skills and specialise in sculling about with their eyes shut and brain disengaged.

And yes, I do drive a car as well - I try to apply the principles of "Roadcraft" at least as much as I do on the bike. But let's face it - there are some people out there who couldn't be trusted with a pair of roller skates, let alone a potentially lethal powered metal missile (2 AND 4 wheeled, BTW :shock: ) !!!

These are the people we need to reach, but how do you get them to listen? Or do anything about improving their skill levels? :?

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:30 
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Yeah fair enough there are many people who drive cars just as an impatient way of getting from A to B and have no regard for other road users like bikers. Generally I find bikers ride out of passion whereas most car drivers simply see it as a way of getting from A to B and those are the ones who would rather take public tranny if it was cheaper. I don't expect a reply I am just agreeing with what you said :bighand:

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 Post subject: Re: double standards
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 19:44 
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Flynn wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
One of the hardest things to do is to change peoples perceptions. Bikes get all the bad publicity nowadays and sadly its due to the increase in number on the roads and the fact that the deaths are not only a high % of that road user group but are highly publicised. Yet the biggest killer by far is on 4 wheels not 2. I remember a local news report some time ago about the number of dead so far on the county roads ( I believe the figure was about 17 at the time) they quickly went strait to the fact that 4 were bikers then went on commenting about police focus on bikes which took everyones focus away from the 13 killed in cars or by cars. Statistically bikes are dangerous, numerically cars are more dangerous. :roll:

Yeah I had a feeling you were going to get a dig in against cars, should have thought as much :roll: The reason is probably because there are more cars than motorbikes. And can't you motorcycle guys just stop attacking cars for once!? :x :x :x Car drivers and bike riders both have engines which the government seems to be venemently against; we should bloody well team up for christ's sake! Car enthusiasts appreciate enjoying driving just like riders enjoy riding, we have much in common, stop being foolish by fighting with people who have similar interests to yourself as a biker.


I dont do digs, I make valid points....did you know that the vast (and I mean VAST) majority of our young people and kiddies are killed in or by cars? Did you know that the majority of animal deaths on our roads are by 4 wheelers not bikes? And even though the average speed of traffic has fallen dramatically over the yrs but the fatality rates I have just mentioned involving cars remains virtually the same if not increased? Did you know that the vast majority of uninsured vehs are cars, the vast majority of un taxed vehs are cars, the most common veh involved in crime is a car and did you know that the majority of un roadworthy vehs on our roads are cars and the vast majority of drink drivers...you guessed it..cars?

If I wanted to have a dig as you say it wouldnt be difficult.And you are inaccurate with your reasoning, its not simply a case of more cars on road, if you look at the % figures of just the factors Ive given here you might get a surprise.Its about safety issues here not about shouting naa naa na naa naa! across the playground.Why would I be anti car when I drive one? :roll:My concern is safety and not joining a pact of government descentors.Bikers are killed due to their vulnerability after the crash occurs, maybe instant maybe later but cars have introduced more safety features than apollo missions over the yrs, reduced speeds overall and have a lovely shell to protect them yet they still keep those death figures up there with the best! :( What should I say? 'Bikers get dead when they crash, Cars are wonderful safe things arent they?') If you dont want to hear about stats/facts and opinions involving cars and you are feel people are picking on the poor car driver I think you expect the wrong things from a forum of this type.


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