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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:42 
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Why oh why do motorcyclists (or a high percentage thereof ) seem to consider my action of slowing down and indicating right, preparitory to turning into my driveway, as an invitation to overtake?? Typically just as I am making my turn.

the occasional twit, one would expect, but this must be nearer 1 in 3! Whilst I can see that there may be some abiguity over the road layout I still find myself wondering why so many chose "I'm not sure what this guy intends to do, so I will blat past with full throttle" as the prefererd course of action over that of "I'm not sure what this guy intends to do so I will just hold back a moment and wait and see" :?

I do not wish to give the impression that I am in any way "Anti-bike". On the contrary I am more than willing to position myself on the road to allow bikers to pass both when they are behind me and when I see them appraoching slower traffic on the other side of the road coming towards me.

It is just that I find this particular situation perplexing :? :?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:57 
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Are you really "slowing down and indicating right" in that order?

If so that answers your question.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 13:28 
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Nah, if somebody slows down in front of you the first thing to do is NOT blat past them.

Unless you're an idiot of course.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 13:31 
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Speedy wrote:
Are you really "slowing down and indicating right" in that order?

If so that answers your question.


I see where you are coming from and it makes a certain sense. As I said, there is a degree of ambiguity with the road layout.

My driveway is about 70 yards past a mini roundabout. so;

a) If i signal "In good time" it will simply look as if my indicator has failed to cancel. I try to leave a gap of a few seconds between canceling after having negotiated the roundabout snd signaling again to enter my driveway in order to try to make it clear that this is a *new* manouver.

b) The "Slowing down" is likly to be rather subtle, I have just gone round a roundabout and have little oppertunity to build up speed before having to slow/stop again. It is also uphill so only light braking is required to come to a halt and, in any case I try to adjust my speed so I concide with a gap on the other side of the road so I dont actually have to stop (Doesnt everybody? :lol: ).

BUT

non of this explains why sombody should feel justified in overtaking a slow moving/stationary vehicle signaling right :?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 13:37 
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I agree with Speedy - but more than that you must be sending some 'unintended signals' if that's happening so often.

Are you adopting a position to the right? When?

Obviously the critical thing while this is going on is to watch your mirrors like a hawk and always allow for foolish overtakers.

Our road is an unprotected right turn from a fast single carriageway 'A' road. I start planning for the right turn from about a mile away. If there's anyone causing bother in my mirrors I ensure that they have overtaken before I reach my right turn.

I indicate early and (then) position as far right as I possible can so that the signal can be seen from many vehicles back. I slow down early, showing brake lights and watching my mirrors for anyone who might be getting in a mess. This would mainly be the right door mirror for the biggest view back along the offside.

I adjust speed whenever possible to arrive at the right turn at the same time as a gap in the oncoming traffic.

No one - and I mean no one - has ever tried to overtake while I'm organising my right turn.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 15:14 
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I would agree that road positioning is key here, along with indicating early. There may be ambiguity given the position relative to the last junction, but people are unlikely to blat past a right indicator that they can see, hence moving as far right as is safe.

Of course never forget both mirror and shoulder checks before starting to turn in. I'm sure this is normal for you already, given that you've yet to hit any of the passers.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 20:59 
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I think a lot of the confusion may be to do with the fact that I do not "Accelerate" away from the mini-roundabout (since I would only have to brake again within a few yards) and they get impatient assuming that I am some sort of dodderer (I have seen yoofs in Corsas positioning themselves for an overtake too, but it is rather less common, so its not just 2 wheelers)

Quote:
I'm sure this is normal for you already, given that you've yet to hit any of the passers.


I am pretty aware of the issue now, but the first time it happened it did catch me by surprise (I think the biker was *surprised* too, maybe to the extent of a new set of leathers!)

Shoulder checks are not really relevent for me since I drive a van and would have to stick my head out of the window to get a better view than the one I get from my mirrors.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 21:04 
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Then I guess the best you can do is take very dominant road position and indicate all the way from the mini-roundabout.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 22:44 
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Ahh. With the turn so close to the roundabout, I'd roll down the window and give a good old fashioned arm signal as well as the indicator. You'll be amazed at how effective it is.

Give it a go. I practically guarantee the problems will stop.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 22:49 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Ahh. With the turn so close to the roundabout, I'd roll down the window and give a good old fashioned arm signal as well as the indicator. You'll be amazed at how effective it is.

Give it a go. I practically guarantee the problems will stop.


Wish I'd thought of that. This could be a situation where the old-fashioned ways may well be the best.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 22:57 
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Speedy wrote:
This could be a situation where the old-fashioned ways may well be the best.


As long as you don't get your arm knocked off...

I'd check before sticking it out of the window.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 23:14 
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weepej wrote:
Speedy wrote:
This could be a situation where the old-fashioned ways may well be the best.


As long as you don't get your arm knocked off...

I'd check before sticking it out of the window.


Good signals are given deliberately and with foresight to specific other road users as required. It's inherent that good signals can only follow good observation.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 18:34 
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I have noticed that newer cars have either "fake" LED type rear lights or a clear lens and a orange bulb. I have been caught out a couple of times on my bike where a car has turned and I wasn't expecting it. At first I thought my concentration was slipping, but after studying the problem further I am finding the new indicators on cars difficult to see from the higher bike viewpoint AND these new lights don't seem as bright - or the area of brightness is less. In direct sunlight I have missed seeing an indicator altogether, which is scary :o (Compare that to the indicator area on an old Cortina MkII). (Vans, lorries and buses must be even worse).

Agree with the point on road positioning - absolutely key

As a biker I would NEVER overtake a car turning right on purpose - this is absolute suicide! No matter how reckless this may seem, the only person who is going to get hurt is the rider! So something is saying to the bikes overtaking that the car has slowed, but a right turn is not the next likely action.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 18:58 
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Information, Position, Speed..

Info (Look and give info) Signal first
change position (making it clear you intend to turn, buy by not slowing down you encourage them to go up the inside)
change speed (gives them the view its soon)
all before getting ready to turn...

If you simply slow down then the rider will assess if there are any side roads and go for it assuming there aren't.

In the event that there was an accident you would cop some of the blame and loose your NCD.. as you have a responsibility to check behind and in your blind spot before turning.

Of course its pretty stupid overtaking a car indicating to turn right, although there are some situations where it can be safe

e.g. bus waiting to turn right at traffic lights, no gaps in oncoming traffic and bus swung left to make the right turn easier. Gotta be done very slowly though (i.e slower than walking pace)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 08:44 
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chrisdhall wrote:
I have noticed that newer cars have either "fake" LED type rear lights or a clear lens and a orange bulb. I have been caught out a couple of times on my bike where a car has turned and I wasn't expecting it. At first I thought my concentration was slipping, but after studying the problem further I am finding the new indicators on cars difficult to see from the higher bike viewpoint AND these new lights don't seem as bright - or the area of brightness is less.

Have you noticed the positioning of the front indicator lamp on some modern VW (Golf, Polo thing)? It is inside the headlamp lens so when the headlight is on it is nearly impossible to see.

Well done car designers. The appearance of your product in the showroom is far more important that actually making the thing work. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:14 
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Icandoit wrote:
Well done car designers. The appearance of your product in the showroom is far more important that actually making the thing work. :roll:


Absolutely. Indicators have been incorporated in the headlight cluster design for years - and it's a crap idea. It's style over function.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 14:16 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
Icandoit wrote:
Well done car designers. The appearance of your product in the showroom is far more important that actually making the thing work. :roll:


Absolutely. Indicators have been incorporated in the headlight cluster design for years - and it's a crap idea. It's style over function.


It's also cheaper for them to manufacture and more expensive to replace :x

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 16:36 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
Icandoit wrote:
Well done car designers. The appearance of your product in the showroom is far more important that actually making the thing work. :roll:


Absolutely. Indicators have been incorporated in the headlight cluster design for years - and it's a crap idea. It's style over function.


Lighting regulations 1989 wrote:
3. Angles of visibility-
(a) A motor vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986 and a trailer manufactured on or after 1st October 1985-

(i) Horizontal (see diagrams in Part III of this Schedule)-

(A) A front or rear indicator fitted to a motor vehicle, other than a solo motor bicycle or a motor bicycle combination, having a maximum speed exceeding 25 mph and every rear indicator fitted to a trailer:

80° outwards and 45° inwards


I am pretty sure I would not call the inset design visible at 80°. I suppose technically they must to be on a production car though the definition of 'visible' must be loosely defined I think.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 17:08 
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An added point is the growing tendency to use coloured "Bulbs" with clear "Lenses" (rather than the other way round)

They may be the same colour and they may be the same power, but they are Nowhere near as visible!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:30 
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Hi Dusty

Now that I've got the gist of the thread, I thought I would give you some advice, as most of the replies seem to have drifted off into car indicator specification . . . . ?

Make sure that you buy a car with good side impact protection and side airbags, so if some numpty biker can't understand what you are about to do, then at least you won't be hurt.

I'm a senior observer (motorcycle) with IAM, and there are lots of pieces of common sense advice that we try to instil in our associates. Fairly high up this list is for riders to think, and use information.

Ergo . . . Residential area with houses either side > driver(s) slowing down > brake lights > right hand indicator flashing = someone is turning off the road to the right.

There are NO excuses for riders who get this wrong, and quite frankly it gives me some comfort to know why the statistics are so bad.

However, it's worth pointing out that bikers aren't the only numpty's who try to overtake vehicles turning right, this is why advanced motorcycling skills include the use of a right hand lifesaver before crossing the centre of the road to turn right.

I await abuse from numpty bikers. . . .


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