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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:48 
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simonhep wrote:
I'm a senior observer (motorcycle) with IAM

:welcome: Simon.

This should get interesting.. :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:58 
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simonhep wrote:
Hi Dusty

Now that I've got the gist of the thread, I thought I would give you some advice, as most of the replies seem to have drifted off into car indicator specification . . . . ?

Make sure that you buy a car with good side impact protection and side airbags, so if some numpty biker can't understand what you are about to do, then at least you won't be hurt.


Simon, :welcome:

I'm a little confused by your reply. Are you telling Dusty that his only way of avoiding these incidents is to get a stronger car and make them more surviveable?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 14:01 
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simonhep wrote:
Ergo . . . Residential area with houses either side > driver(s) slowing down > brake lights > right hand indicator flashing = someone is turning off the road to the right.


Yeah, but that ain’t what’s happening.

The OP’s turn is shortly after the roundabout – so no significant slowing of his vehicle. Perhaps there’s just a very small amount of acceleration.
It’s dangerous to speculate, but since this is such a common occurrence, I wouldn’t mind betting it’s an opportunistic overtake when exiting the roundabout. A car accelerating slowly is fair game, and I wouldn’t mind betting that ALL the bikers have judged accurately that he’s not turning until after the overtake is completed.


Oh, and :welcome:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 14:11 
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Mmmm, good challenge Paul.

No, stronger cars just increase the divergence between risk perception and skill, since people feel 'cocooned' in their shiny boxes. It should be all about increasing skill levels, however, a good short-term fix for an experienced driver is to make sure they have a safe vehicle.

The fact of the matter is that it takes a long time to increase skill levels in the summer sport bike fraternity, and because they are usually only out for evening blasts, their lack of restraint is always the first thing that will cause them to go for impulse overtakes in unsafe situations.

Your reply earlier in the thread about getting the preparation, set up and execution of the manouevre are all valid. Only modification for bike riders is NOT to adopt a position that is too offside, since it invites following car drivers to go up the nearside on roads that aren't wide enough, and risk hitting the rider's left hand side (very painful, I talk from experience).

Simon


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 Post subject: Overtaking
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 22:46 
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I haven't posted for a while but thought I would add my tuppence worth here.

I agree with the Grumpy Old Biker - a quick/progressive rider will make the overtake on the exit of the roundabout as a bike will accelerate far quicker than the van, and exits of roundabouts are a good opportunity to pass slower traffic.

The reasons in this case are unwittingly compounded by Dusty himself. He is near to his home and is therefore mentally and physically slowing down as he approaches the roundabout. He indicates right and does all the correct actions, but his slow approach as he nears his home has already allowed a bike to catch him up and the rider has perceived him as a slow driver. When Dusty exits the roundabout he does not speed up and the rider seizes the opportunity and passes him.

(It would be interesting to know when the next junction/opportunity to turn right is, beyond Dusty's drive, as this may influence the rider's decision making process).

The remedy for this problem has already been given, Dusty needs to straddle the white line as he exits the roundabout and indicates right and a hand signal is the icing on the cake. By doing this he is denying the bike rider the road positioning to overtake and the hand signal reinforces the message.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:07 
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Early Road posistioning is the key.

Similar to a HGV "taking onwership" of the whole road on the approach to a small roundabout. The HGV is going to physically take up the both lanes on the roundabout anyway so this prevents cars trying to nip up the inside of the lorry and getting squashed under the trailer.
A lot of drivers don't understand this and think the HGV driver is just being a bully.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 14:16 
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simonhep wrote:
...
:welcome:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 23:27 
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If this is happening at the same place by different bikers it could be due to the way you are doing the turn most bikers dont ride around looking for a place to have a crash and all pick the same one your drive.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 03:01 
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Of course one even neater solution that we haven't much touched on is for Dusty to keep slow and left to let any bikers in his mirrors nip past before it's time for his right turn.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 08:26 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Of course one even neater solution that we haven't much touched on is for Dusty to keep slow and left to let any bikers in his mirrors nip past before it's time for his right turn.


Perhaps we have touched on it - sort of.
I suspect that's the message he's giving to the motorcyclists.

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 Post subject: Numpty Bikers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 13:10 
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I agree totally with what you say about "Observation" as only a foolish rider / driver would overtake a vehicle just because it isn,t going fast enough for the following vehicle and as an advanced rider myself (I passed the 3 IAM tests car / m/cycle / HGV ) it is quite simply as you say down to forward observation / planning as if someone doesn,t appear to be accelarating I would assume that they could be planning a manouvre such as a right or left turn and to wait for a few seconds is (to me) the safest thing to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Numpty Bikers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 13:43 
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Stormin wrote:
I agree totally with what you say about "Observation" as only a foolish rider / driver would overtake a vehicle just because it isn,t going fast enough for the following vehicle and as an advanced rider myself (I passed the 3 IAM tests car / m/cycle / HGV ) it is quite simply as you say down to forward observation / planning as if someone doesn,t appear to be accelarating I would assume that they could be planning a manouvre such as a right or left turn and to wait for a few seconds is (to me) the safest thing to do.


That's absolutely true, although of course the bikers in question aren't here to read it. We only have the chance, here and now, to deal with it from Dusty's perspective.

This same 'discipline' exists every time we're on the road. The proper question is usually What can I do to make this safe? I'm making this point because it's all too easy and all too common for drivers to say: they shouldn't do that when they should be finding positive actions to create safety despite the fact that others 'are doing that'.

(I appreciate that others may find themselves in similar positions to Dusty's bikers, and I'm not trying to suggest that your post wasn't worth making. Far from it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Numpty Bikers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 13:52 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
The proper question is usually What can I do to make this safe? I'm making this point because it's all too easy and all too common for drivers to say: they shouldn't do that when they should be finding positive actions to create safety despite the fact that others 'are doing that'.


Good point, but I think there's also the potential for misunderstanding biker's actions. By their very nature, bikes can react to a situation very rapidly and that can be interpreted as 'dangerous' by drivers.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 14:03 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Of course one even neater solution that we haven't much touched on is for Dusty to keep slow and left to let any bikers in his mirrors nip past before it's time for his right turn.


Perhaps we have touched on it - sort of.


I've just re-read the thread, and we've pretty much missed it. Shame on us.

Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
I suspect that's the message he's giving to the motorcyclists.


Yes, but of course there's a world of difference between an accidental and a deliberate message.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 14:12 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Yes, but of course there's a world of difference between an accidental and a deliberate message.


Of course. But if the overtake is just as safe either way, the difference is not relevent.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 14:17 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Yes, but of course there's a world of difference between an accidental and a deliberate message.


Of course. But if the overtake is just as safe either way, the difference is not relevent.


I think it is to Dusty. Isn't it?

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 Post subject: Never too old to learn!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 16:51 
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I hope Dusty is keeping up with all the advice / suggestions being put forward :)

As with all driving, and the fact that he has bothered to ask for help in the first place, I am sure he will take it all on board and adapt it as he sees fit.

I would just like to say that having kept up with the thread, and being car/bike (but not HGV) advanced trained, I will take it as a timely reminder to keep looking and thinking for vehicles turning into drives and other unmarked turnings.

Cheers Dusty

Bill

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 18:36 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Yes, but of course there's a world of difference between an accidental and a deliberate message.


Of course. But if the overtake is just as safe either way, the difference is not relevent.


I think it is to Dusty. Isn't it?


:hehe: Yeah! Sure it is to Dusty - but maybe not to the overtaking bikers, nor to safety.

As I said earlier, it's dangerous to speculate, but it might be the perception of the event being dangerous, rather than the reality. From the bikers perspective, it's probably just routine.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 19:42 
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Quote:
I hope Dusty is keeping up with all the advice / suggestions being put forward


Yes I am. Thankyou :)

Quote:
I agree with the Grumpy Old Biker - a quick/progressive rider will make the overtake on the exit of the roundabout as a bike will accelerate far quicker than the van, and exits of roundabouts are a good opportunity to pass slower traffic.


I think this is a very good analysis. I have noticed that some of the more "Press On" riders adopt a passing position on my rear quarter even as I exit the roundabout. Possibly so close that they simply cannot see my indicator light when I begin signaling prior to making my turn.

I think the best suggestion (so far) is simply the use of good ol fashioned hand signals to emphasise the point I already use hand signals in other situations (Its great for switching lanes in heavy slow moving traffic. Other drivers seem so shocked they mostly stop to let me through :lol: )

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 Post subject: Hand signals
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 22:56 
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Dusty

Like the use of hand signals, and the response you get just highlights the value of human interaction.

One of the great shortfalls of modern driving is the lack of personal contact. No one wants to engage with any one else, they all get in their metal boxes and even lock the doors to keep the nasty people out!

I try to nod or wave to all oncoming bikers and scooter riders, as do many other bike riders, but I also try to wave a thank you to all the drivers that make an effort to be helpful, for example, by moving to make room for me to filter.

An example of this is when travelling in the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway, and a driver moves left for me to pass, I will often raise my left hand as a thank you (even though he should move left as instructed in the Highway Code). The reason being that it acknowledges that he has been looking in his rear mirror, but also because it seems to have a positive effect on the next driver in the queue of cars that love to drive in the outside lane, he will often move over very quickly to allow me past also.

As they always say, it costs nothing to say thank you and I always hope that it leaves a positive impression on them, so next time they will move over for another rider.

:angel:

Bill

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