Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 13:34

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 18:29 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 15:50
Posts: 249
hampshireian wrote:
I have noticed in various magazies / forums the view that putting both feet down when stopped is a cardinal sin

Can someone explain whats the problem ?

I have long enough legs that I can put both feet flat on the floor and hold the bike still even on noticable slopes without using the brakes.

Quote:


Its not a huge deal so feel free to put both feet down, I do if its windy or the mood takes me but new riders or beginners should read my comments further on in this thread.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 19:11 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
Well, I continue to be flabbergasted :shock:

Sorry it's somewhat off original topic but, after chatting with the same friend who's new to biking, something else cropped up which was a blow to me. I stand to look stupid now, but that's never bothered me in the past so...

Anyone here pass your test ~20-30 years ago ever heard of 'counter steering'?

I confess I hadn't! But when he talked about it I realised it's something I have done since the mid 70s to 80s when I was trying to.. er.. get a move on around bends etc. :roll:

But in normal everyday riding when I bank left or right I use my body to lean the bike over with my hands, more or less, on the bars because that's where the controls are - not to steer the thing! :?

But he tells me that he "always" uses 'Counter Steering'!!!

Is this another thing which is taught as 'the norm' these days?

He said to me that he got into a potentially life-threatening situation the once because of it, but maybe I can get him to tell the story better if he sees this thread (ict_guy)

Can someone enlighten me please?

BTW, when I say I move my body, I don't mean I'm shifting across the seat like I'm in the British Superbike Championship. It's just subtle movements


Edit to add - For those who don't/didn't know - Counter steering is using the bars to force/assist the bike one way or the other but not something you would need or use "all the time" IMO - But what do I know? (Rhetorical - I hope)

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 22:51 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Big Tone wrote:

Anyone here pass your test ~20-30 years ago ever heard of 'counter steering'?


But he tells me that he "always" uses 'Counter Steering'!!!



Yep, though think it was not until a year or so after I had passed that I heard the term so mid '80s.

For me it depends what he means by always, once you are at speeds where you lean into a corner you will be counter steering even if you did not do so consciously, it is just the way bike steering geometry works.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 23:27 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Herbie J wrote:
This is not of huge importance in the scheme of things but there must be a viable standard to teach by and it must be sensible. It is not good to teach people advanced techniques before they have basic skill. The left foot is always put down on modern bikes, As you stop and lean on this foot it stops you falling into traffic it leaves you with a full grip of throttle and clutch and your right foot in control of rear brake which prevents rolling or being nudged by accident into traffic, as you should always halt in 1st gear you can move off more readily.The brake and clutch are designed for all fingers not two (unless its a crosser) if you crash with a habbit of two finger holding there are circumstances where you may lose the other two.Though dont get into the habbit of excessive rear brake use, always remember when braking in a strait line...FRONT BRAKE first immediately followed by REAR BRAKE in good conditions a ratio of 75/25. I see a lot of old school bikers using the back brake wrongly just thought I would remind people.


Interesting to hear the modern perspective, you are right on getting the basics taught first, I hope you do mention that more advanced techniques exist though.

Note I did not suggest a rider should use two fingers on the brake while moving, only as a means to have control of both the brake and throttle while stationary.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 23:46 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
toltec wrote:
Big Tone wrote:

Anyone here pass your test ~20-30 years ago ever heard of 'counter steering'?


But he tells me that he "always" uses 'Counter Steering'!!!



Yep, though think it was not until a year or so after I had passed that I heard the term so mid '80s.

For me it depends what he means by always, once you are at speeds where you lean into a corner you will be counter steering even if you did not do so consciously, it is just the way bike steering geometry works.


Thanks toltec.

I'll see if ict_guy will post a reply. (I'll text the bugger if I have to :) ) I value his experience and what he was taught in recent times and I would like to hear what others think; for safety sake and edification of new-comers to the biking world so that we may all learn something new or different. Maybe a different thread even? I would be very interested to know everything they are teaching these days...

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 01:03 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 15:50
Posts: 249
toltec wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
This is not of huge importance in the scheme of things but there must be a viable standard to teach by and it must be sensible. It is not good to teach people advanced techniques before they have basic skill. The left foot is always put down on modern bikes, As you stop and lean on this foot it stops you falling into traffic it leaves you with a full grip of throttle and clutch and your right foot in control of rear brake which prevents rolling or being nudged by accident into traffic, as you should always halt in 1st gear you can move off more readily.The brake and clutch are designed for all fingers not two (unless its a crosser) if you crash with a habbit of two finger holding there are circumstances where you may lose the other two.Though dont get into the habbit of excessive rear brake use, always remember when braking in a strait line...FRONT BRAKE first immediately followed by REAR BRAKE in good conditions a ratio of 75/25. I see a lot of old school bikers using the back brake wrongly just thought I would remind people.


Quote:
Interesting to hear the modern perspective, you are right on getting the basics taught first, I hope you do mention that more advanced techniques exist though.

Note I did not suggest a rider should use two fingers on the brake while moving
, only as a means to have control of both the brake and throttle while stationary.

I'd rather not go into advanced stuff in here too much as you never know who is gonna misunderstand it, I would rather stick to face to face advanced stuff.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 13:09 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 06:22
Posts: 24
Location: Western Spiral Arm
FWIW, I'm doing my RoSPA m/c test (BMW R1200RT) . I use right foot down - less distance to the road surface (camber) so more stable. The idea is to have the bike slow down and stop in a planned and controlled manner - the foot should go down at the moment of stopping or just before so you will have the use of both brakes right down until the last second. Conversely, the foot should be raised and put back on the peg as soon as you move off again. There should be no leg-waving or foot skidding as is so often seen these days (scooter riders seem to be worst for this).

Just for fun, if you ride a bike above 10 mph, you do countersteer - i.e. pushing on the right hand bar will turn the front wheel to the left but causes the bike to lean to the right as the bike rolls around the moving contact patch of the front wheel.

It's impossible to turn the bike otherwise - if you don't believe it just try it. Someone in the States bult a bike with a second fixed set of handlebars and invited people to turn the bike by moving around, shifting their weight, etc. They couldn't do it.

It is a very useful skill to have - it is literally a life-saver. Doing this with purpose gives you a much cripser degree of control, as you are conciously laying the machine down and picking it up again. So once again, you can shift your weight around as much as you like, but the bike won't turn if you don't push the bars.

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 13:34 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
Speedy23 wrote:
Just for fun, if you ride a bike above 10 mph, you do countersteer - i.e. pushing on the right hand bar will turn the front wheel to the left but causes the bike to lean to the right as the bike rolls around the moving contact patch of the front wheel.

It's impossible to turn the bike otherwise - if you don't believe it just try it. Someone in the States bult a bike with a second fixed set of handlebars and invited people to turn the bike by moving around, shifting their weight, etc. They couldn't do it.

Hi Speedy23

Sorry to contradict you but, as I understand counter steering, it is the act of physically pushing or pulling the bars to steer, as you said, but it's not "impossible to turn the bike otherwise".

I used to ride a cycle around objects with no hands on the bars and I can do the same on my motorbike above 10 mph. So if I am not holding the bars at all how am I able to steer? It's by shifting your bodyweight and you surprise me with your statement TBH. :o

I have two model motorbikes, an electric and fuel type. The fuel one has actuators which physically pull and push the handlebars whereas the electric one steers by only shifting the riders body weigh either left or right - not by applying any force on the bars!

I recently crashed the electric one and his head came off. Now it doesn't steer as well because the extra weight of his head was important to steer.

I rest my case ;)

PS. I think there's a You Tube video of the electric bike if you want to see it for yourself. It works very well I can tell you.

PPS. Did you mean below 10mph? That would make more sense although it wouldn't be counter steering then :?

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 14:06 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 06:22
Posts: 24
Location: Western Spiral Arm
Speedy23 wrote:
It's impossible to turn the bike otherwise - if you don't believe it just try it. Someone in the States bult a bike with a second fixed set of handlebars and invited people to turn the bike by moving around, shifting their weight, etc. They couldn't do it.


....And that bloke was Keith Code, and his "no BS" bike......

Have a look for yourself.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 14:26 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Speedy23 wrote:
Speedy23 wrote:
It's impossible to turn the bike otherwise - if you don't believe it just try it. Someone in the States bult a bike with a second fixed set of handlebars and invited people to turn the bike by moving around, shifting their weight, etc. They couldn't do it.


....And that bloke was Keith Code, and his "no BS" bike......

Have a look for yourself.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644


It looks like he first moves the bike several feet to the right (our left) then goes around a shallow left hand bend. Look at the dark stripe along the tarmac. He also seemed to be keeping his CoG centered over the bike.

You certainly can steer a bike without holding the bars it is just much slower and a bit dodgy if you go to far. Consciously using CS just makes the steering far more reactive and, assuming you have the skill, controllable. I think Keith's demo is more about most bikers using CS unconsciously rather than using the weight shifts they think they are.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 15:25 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen!

He's not moving his COG or hardly at all! Why did he get off the seat? Why is moving his head one way and his arse the other? Why did he put his leg over to one side and move his head further the opposite way?

I'll tell you why - to keep the COG in the F :censored: n' centre!!! To under-exaggerate something which actually works perfectly well in 'normal' riding for most conditions.

If I was on that bike I could simply shift my weight a little, without getting out of the seat, and negotiate an island! I'll damn well prove it if someone doubts me!

To clarify, I've never said or suggested that counter steering doesn't work or doesn't react quicker but it isn't something which you need to do unless you are trying to race or suddenly need to change your line, to avoid a pot hole for example.

Soz mate, I'm not 'going off on one' at you. I'm angry at the hype of that video!

I would be VERY careful of what they are teaching you!

That video was promotional to make a case for their teaching. This must be exactly what my friend ict_guy talked about.


I don't know how long you have been riding but I stared in 1975 and have had more bikes than I care to remember. I'm now nearly 50 and have done just about everything anyone can do on a motorbike.

In the mean time I WILL find the video of the electric model I referred to and post it as further proof of what I am saying...


(I recon my BP is about 210 over 180 at the moment) I hate bad or miss-information! :hoppingmad:

I am SO angry!!! I'm spitting feathers here!!!

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 16:39 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT :D

And remember, the rider isn't/can't do a thing with the handlebars. It's a dummy, just like K£ith Code! I pity the fool Image

Seems to do pretty well I think you will agree...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_lZlvVojqFE

Edit to add: And before anyone says or thinks it, I know it's a model but it works exactly the same on the real thing. Just like the Flight of the Phoenix :)

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 17:49 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
And here's another, apparently defying the laws of physics :roll:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ASqbY06gwFs

Convinced yet?

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 15:56 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 06:22
Posts: 24
Location: Western Spiral Arm
Big Tone wrote:
And here's another, apparently defying the laws of physics :roll:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ASqbY06gwFs

Convinced yet?


No. :evil: Small models and pushbikes are very much a different Marmite de poissons to a motorbike. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Oh & FTR, 33 yrs on motorbikes - in no chronological order BMW R1200GS, R1200RT, BSA C15, Guzzi SP1000, H-D XLH1200, FLS 1340, Honda CG125, CD175, CD200, CB250, CJ250, MZ250, Suzi X5, Triumph Tina ( :roll: yes I Know), New Bonnie, Yammy XS650, XS750, XS1100.

I think that's the lot..... :fastasleep:

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:41 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
Wikipedia can, has and does get it wrong - fact! Hopefully/usually, it is updated as-and-when new evidence or erroneous information is submitted.

I can tell you as a fact that it is entirely possible to steer without pushing or pulling the handlebars or even holding them.

I'm amazed that you refute this or believe that, as Wronipedia puts it "It is the only way a rider can cause the lean that a single-track vehicle must have in order to negotiate a turn successfully".

That, as a statement of fact is incorrect and I fully intend to write to them to get it corrected.

I don't know if you are just a wind-up merchant or genuinely believe it but if you cannot ride a bike without using counter steering or believe it cannot be done with a record like yours, I am lost for words.

How am I able to turn and negotiate an island with my hands on the petrol tank? How can I zig-zag through cones with my hands on the tank? Or do you think it can't be done?

Even the fool on that bike managed to veer off from straight slightly, (by definition - turning! Allbeit everso slightly for the benefit of greater fools who look-on in belief) :jester:

PS. And if you care to explain why the small bikes are different I'm sure we'd all like to hear it?

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Last edited by Big Tone on Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:43, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:42 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Speedy23 wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
And here's another, apparently defying the laws of physics :roll:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ASqbY06gwFs

Convinced yet?


No. :evil: Small models and pushbikes are very much a different Marmite de poissons to a motorbike. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Oh & FTR, 33 yrs on motorbikes - in no chronological order BMW R1200GS, R1200RT, BSA C15, Guzzi SP1000, H-D XLH1200, FLS 1340, Honda CG125, CD175, CD200, CB250, CJ250, MZ250, Suzi X5, Triumph Tina ( :roll: yes I Know), New Bonnie, Yammy XS650, XS750, XS1100.

I think that's the lot..... :fastasleep:


No Hands on wiki wrote:
The reason this no-hands steering is less effective on heavy bikes, such as motorcycles, is that the rider weighs so much less than the bike that leaning the torso with respect to the bike does not cause the bike to lean far enough to generate anything but the shallowest turns. Riders may be able to keep a bike centered in a lane and negotiate shallow highway turns, but not much else.


I can see your point that the effective control of the model bike Big Tone has used as an example is rather different from that of a real bike and rider, however the implication that it is impossible to steer a bike without CS being applied directly to the bars (consciously or not) is also wrong.

Personally I think the video should have shown the rider doing a slalom where by leaning alone he could only change sides every e.g. 4th cone but using CS he could swap on every cone. He could possibly also have had a rider using unconscious CS getting every second cone, i.e. get an untrained rider to go as fast as he/she could through every second cone, then show he could use CS to get through every cone at the same speed.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:51 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 16:34
Posts: 4923
Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
toltec wrote:
...the implication that it is impossible to steer a bike without CS being applied directly to the bars (consciously or not) is also wrong. .

Correct and agreed toltec! Wikipedia is wrong!

toltec wrote:
Personally I think the video should have shown the rider doing a slalom where by leaning alone he could only change sides every e.g. 4th cone but using CS he could swap on every cone. He could possibly also have had a rider using unconscious CS getting every second cone, i.e. get an untrained rider to go as fast as he/she could through every second cone, then show he could use CS to get through every cone at the same speed.

Correct and agreed!

Another thing with not using counter-steering is that by throttling-off while banking over you can tighten the bend to negotiate smaller bends/islands etc..

I'm losing the will to even bother with this thread anymore. :x

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:57 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 13:54
Posts: 1711
Location: NW Kent
Big Tone wrote:

Another thing with not using counter-steering is that by throttling-off while banking over you can tighten the bend to negotiate smaller bends/islands etc..



Weight transfer induced geometry and slip angle changes - whole new argument :)

Not to mention torque reactions.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 16:59 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 06:22
Posts: 24
Location: Western Spiral Arm
Big Tone wrote:
1. How am I able to turn and negotiate an island with my hands on the petrol tank? How can I zig-zag through cones with my hands on the tank? Or do you think it can't be done?

2. PS. And if you care to explain why the small bikes are different I'm sure we'd all like to hear it?


1. Love to see you do it. If you can demo this, I will acceed to you. I am particularly interested in how you maintain throttle control through the cones and round the roundabout, though, with both hand on the tank.

2. Mass of the wheel rims (affects gyroscopic precession - look at the link to the Tony Foale article), speed, accelerations when turming, magnitude of forces thus geenerated etc. etc.

No - I'm not a wind up merchant, either. :D I really do believe this to be true. As I said, if you can demo this to me (we could meet up for a :drink2: or 2) I'm more than willing to say I'm wrong.

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 17:03 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 06:22
Posts: 24
Location: Western Spiral Arm
toltec wrote:
Big Tone wrote:

Another thing with not using counter-steering is that by throttling-off while banking over you can tighten the bend to negotiate smaller bends/islands etc..



Weight transfer induced geometry and slip angle changes - whole new argument :)

Not to mention torque reactions.


Errr....wrong again, when you throttle off in a bend the bike will run wide, NOT tighter.......this is why there are many accidents when people over-cook bends - they panic, shut the throttle or brake (same effect) and the bike sits up and you're either in the hedge or in the front of an oncoming car......

_________________
"The Wrong Way Round..."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.022s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]