Safe Speed Forums

UH?

I'm going home now. I'm exhausted...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Last post for tonight. I need my Horlicks and Teddy soon..


Simple - A piece of cardboard between the grip and the switch unit or if you owned a Honda CB250 G5 it had a thumb screw to tighten on the throttle body (Honda's idea of cruise control at the time )


Maybe - If you promise not to duff me up for being so vociferous?

Anyway, where the hec is the Western Spiral Arm? Is it on the Western Spiral Shoulder? (Thought I'd get that in before anyone else)

BTW. Our views may be diametrically opposed and I tend towards OTT but I hope you don't think I'm being disrespectful or anything?

I was self taught a long time ago. I made mistakes and I was lucky not to kill myself. (very lucky indeed). I used to race with my friend down lanes which is where I learned that in order to get around a sharp bend and not end up in a hedge or canal I had to use counter-steering.

Back then it didn't have a name, or if it did I hadn't heard of it. I learnt everything empirically, and sometimes it hurt

My feeling is that today they teach CS as the norm and so people new to the biker world, (like my mate ict_guy), tells me that's how he was told to ride. I can easily see how anything else would seem wrong or not doable.

Not good IMHO.

Also, by not using CS, Ms Tone, (Maria my honeybunchkins and nervous pillion), has a much nicer and predicatable comfortable ride too.

It's a far cry from what I used to do: Racing, drag racing, wheelies,(backwards and forwards), side-saddle, back-saddle, facing wrong way, standing on the seat, donuts, (not the edible type ) etc.

Not trying to boast, just a bit of background bud

I'm a much quieter person these days. I have to be.

Anyone going to wish me happy 50th on 28th August?

(Oh and er.. sorry hampshireian for er.. my 'short'.. er.. hijacking of your post )

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I think I will join you lol!

Now there is a little bit of a non-sensical comment there dont you think? On modern bikes with gears on the left you can have full control over BOTH brakes throughout (not at the last second?>?), There are many advanced techniques in riding but I never understand these silly Ideas that pop up with the 'advanced fraternity' ( I am a lapsed member of both IAM and ROSPA, also been an instructor on all licence groups but road roller and taught advanced on two licence groups ) I welcome any advanced training but some of it is nothing more than conjoured up Ideas to fill a lesson plan and nothing more. Think logically and just imagine that SPLIT SECOND as you stop where you only have one brake covered when muppet behind choses that moment to hit you? Front brake only when its wet and uneven??? Hope you carry a first aid kit.And please avoid describing riding physics etc on a web page. I refer you to a little story where bikes were donated to an african tribe but no instructor there to teach so they refered to the bike riding manual..........Engine run...Pull clutch....Put in gear....TWIST THROTTLE...LET GO CLUTCH! Hope you get my drift. Understanding counter steer doesnt mean you can explain it on paper to millions of would be bikers or even novice bikers, perhaps someone may write in later telling you how they took dads gsxr out and tried your explanation out at 60mph without a clue as to the etchnique ,degree of effort, finess or what to expect or do once they have pushed the handlebars to the right! lmao Oh and its not strictly true that you cannot turn a bike by weight transfer/movement just because handlebars are rigid, however if the steering column itself is solid then you would be correct but i can and many experienced bikers can steer a bike hands free all over the place if they choose but Im not going into the 'HOW IT WORKS' stuff or well be here all week.

[quote="Herbie J]
Think logically and just imagine that SPLIT SECOND as you stop where you only have one brake covered when muppet behind choses that moment to hit you? Front brake only when its wet and uneven??? [/quote]

So what difference is having both brakes covered going to make? You still end up in the road! But if you had left sufficient distance in between yourself & the car in front (if there is one) and you were checking the mirrors, then as soon as you were aware of the car heading for your rear you could shift straight into gear and move off to avoid the crunch! (But this only works if you are in the habit of being aware of what is happening behind you!). And yes, if you read what I said it's both brakes until the last moment so you aren't actually going that fast for the last second or so. And if you're aware of a slippery road surface, then you slow down in good time. Don't you?

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"The Wrong Way Round..."

Western spiral arm = Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy fan Speedy 23:?:

Discussing physics has something to do with reading it at uni

On the point about backing off and going wide or rather going into a corner a bit too hot, this was one of the things that lead me to counter steer. There is a natural reaction to turn into a bend when you suddenly realise you are going wide which actually means it feels like the bike is fighting you and going wider still, which it is of course, for inexperienced riders I think it is this rather than the lift off that causes them to go wide. I don't think Big Tone was talking about entering a corner too fast and backing off rather he meant you could could use the weight shift to change the balance of the bike to make the turn easier.

If this is the case it could be taken as a confirmation of Herbie Js point about training being done face to face not via reading. While I had many discussions with more experienced riders including police instructors a lot of what I learnt came from reading, a knowledge of physics and 'careful' experimentation, but no formal advanced training. I do not have a bike on the road now so only ride mates bike occasionally, however if I did still ride no doubt I would have done some advanced training by now just as I have for driving.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Damn! Rumbled! (But I bet you can't guess where the 23 bit comes from?)

Good points re. reading vs. instruction. As for the physics, as matter of interest, consider this: The precessional force experienced by a gyroscope is proportional to its rotational inertia at the rim. If you hold a bicycle wheel with the spindle horizontal and get someone to spin it, it acts as a gyroscope. if you try to turn the wheel to the left around its vertical axis, you will experience a strong twisting force that will cause the vertical axis of the wheel to lean to the right. Sound familiar?

The twisting force is proportional to the speed of the wheel rim. IF you slow the wheel down then the twisting force will also reduce, causing the verical axis of the wheel to return towards its original orientation. So if this was a motobike wheel, the bike will sit up as it slows down. As it sits up, the radius of the turn it was banked around will increase. And the bike runs wide.

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"The Wrong Way Round..."

Nope nope nope.

If you go around a bend or an island, (round and round in circles like a teddy bear), banked over and simply throttle-off you would fall inwards towards the island as the centrifugal force diminishes. You would not go wide or upright.


Try it - no cheating now.

23 is the number of pages this could go on for

Maybe it's in here? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 37520.html

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Please see above. This is getting good now ('twould be better over a , though - I love a good pub discussion!!). First of all there is no such thing as centrifugal force. What is really there is centripetal force (see http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys06/bcentrif/default.htm. Centripetal force is what causes moving objects to describe a curved path - the faster you go, the higher the centripetal force required to make the object describe a curve. So it follows that if you slow down and all else remains equal then by necessity the radius of the curve must increase


And yes, very, very warm.....but not quite....

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"The Wrong Way Round..."

I did read the above and understand the effects you talk of but you are trying to look at an elephant through a magnifying glass IMO.

I'm not blinded by the science, honestly, it’s just not necessary in this instance. Just try it and see for yourself. I shouldn’t have to buy a You-Tube compatible camera and get my mate to video me to prove it.

People don’t need to know the science behind the flight path of a golf ball which makes it bend through the air to know what works and what doesn't.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Consecutive primes 19 & 23 sum to 42?

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Uh? If you are going around an island there is a centrifugal force from the point of origin in the centre of the island trying to force you away from the island proportional to the speed at which you are going. This is counterbalanced by you leaning into the island and, hopefully, the tyres gripping the road.

The centrifugal force is most evident when you hit a slippy bit and fall off and you move away from the centre point.

That is centrifugal force my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force rightipedia this time

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Objects move in a straight line unless acted upon by a force.

When you hit a slippy patch the centripetal force is removed thus causing you to continue moving in the same direction.

A little like counter steer the reality is the opposite of what is naturally obvious, unlike CS getting it right does not really matter in most real world circumstances.

Get a food tin and a ball bearing, put the ball in the tin and swirl the tin so that ball travels around the circumference of the tin. Make the ball rise to the top of the tin and fly out, is there an invisible force projecting the ball across the room or is it the lack of the wall of the tin to make it continue in a circle?

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

BTW

"Centrifugal force is sometimes referred to as a 'fictitious' force, because it is present only for an accelerated object and does not exist in an inertial frame. An inertial frame is where an object moves in a straight line at a constant speed. But Einstein's general theory of relativity allows observers even in a non-inertial frame to regard themselves at rest, and the forces they feel to be real. Centrifugal force is not fictitious, it is a real force...

We can illustrate the central problem of explaining the nature of centrifugal force by examining how a spin drier removes water from clothes. We put wet clothes in, turn the machine on, and the drum spins around at high speed throwing out the water due to centrifugal force"

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/What%20is ... 0force.htm

We're in danger of strawman argument here...

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Frame of reference, as mentioned in the wiki link you posted.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Soz toltec, I can't see it. I'm not accusing anyone of it BTW but we're starting to get into semantics a little I think.

Whether it's centripetal or centrifugal which you are either resisting being drawn into or forced out from, we know a spin dryer or Centrifuge works whether it was correctly named or not.

To get back to my original argument, I know my motorbike reacts exactly as the electric model and by the very same laws of physics.

Gotta go home and feed the cat now. Beer sounds good sometime Speedy or anyone else in Thu Midlunds

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

It is rather counter intuitive, interesting though how difficult it can be to communicate a concept which is the opposite to the perceived truth particularly when both can be shown to be correct from a certain point of view. Thinking the camera saves lives debate if I am being too obscure there.

You are obviously quite correct about the laws of physics and your model, however you do have to be careful of scaling problems. Double an objects size, its surface area quadruples and its mass increases by a factor of eight.

Not worth arguing about in any case, unless I happen to find myself in your neck of the woods and it is over a beer

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

If Speedy was at Donington today he would have seen a very good stunt rider doing exactly what the model does toltec, only on a larger scale.

If I'd got a recording of it I would be in a position to link to it here and say "watch it and weep - now where's my apology?"

This is not over, even if I've got to do it myself for all to see

Before anyone loses sight of exactly what this is about, (what I emphatically refute), is that it is factually wrong to make this statement/claim regarding Countersteering: -


Nonsense, poppycock and balderdash! I rubbish the video of an idiot who proved nothing at all except how to maintain the C of G while extending opposing body parts. Very clever and proof that only countersteering steers a motorbike - NOT!

If I had recorded the stuntman today at Donington I could put this stupid argument to rest right here, right now. I have to confess, he did it better than I could have. Where's a video camera when you need one? They're like police )

Might take me a while but watch this space...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Dani Pedrosa doesn't put both feet down when he stops. He should know about handling a motorcycle being a Moto GP type and all, but then he is so short he can't get both feet on the ground at the same time

From http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motorcycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/ where the no bs bike has been discussed

I found http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=xBw0yH509lw about two minutes in

It is still centripetal though

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May