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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 21:23 
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Gizmo wrote:
2) I do not believe in man made global warming AT ALL............


Funnily enough - it started out as global warming ,then VERY rapidly changed to climate change .WHY ??? because the facts did not fit up with warming ??.Any when something as basic as a name changes , I smell those furry rodents with long tails and long teeth ,much as I suspect the credentials of those using this sort of arguement to shout down the views of someone (from whose posts I've learned to view as something of a professional on the subject of this postand it's drawbacks ).So carry on Gizmo --you've got at least one backer who's played with batteries from the basic to the elaborate (and seen their failings) :drink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 22:14 
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Thank you gizmo, for your last post. Interesting and informative. I've noticed that the battery in my notebook PC discharges itself over a period of days.

The Vectrix has a 2-yr warranty. Expected battery life is 10 years. If there's a $3000 bill at the end of that time, so be it - not so different from a car that reaches 200k miles and needs a new engine.

Part of why the battery technology is still struggling is because of "cheap" oil - no incentive to pour millions of $ into battery research while oil is still affordable.

But that is changing. Companies developing alternative energy supplies really need the public to buy into their product initially, in order to have the £ for R&D to improve what they have. With oil prices higher than ever before even in real terms, that time may have arrived.

I have my CBT booked for next week. When I talk to Vectrix, I'll be looking for a guarantee to back up their claims of 10-year battery life. If none is forthcoming, negotiation on the purchase price will be next.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:37 
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DieselMoment wrote:
I'll be looking for a guarantee to back up their claims of 10-year battery life. If none is forthcoming


I'll be gobsmacked if you get anything approaching that. the only battery technology I know of thats got a serious 10 year life expectancy are the panasonic lithium cells used in the better mains/rechargeable smoke alarms, and thats generally only trickle charging (not constant charge-discharge cycles) and still not "guaranteed."

Dewalt make some of the best cordless tools- Ni-Cad batteries rated at 4 years/1,000 charges- my last ones did 3 years and not more than 400 charges before they died, and they were properly cycled. And like gizmo says, scooter batteries are very complicated and problematic compared with simple drill batteries.

My van has a ten year+ life expectancy, the warranty is 24 months :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 09:20 
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Does sound interesting the electric scooter the initial £5K is off putting tho but does sound a good alternative for short distance travel, something i'd possibly consider if my commute weren’t so long.

Your question about safety, i believe 2 wheeled vehicles are safe to use, even with the accident rates.

One thing to consider with motorbikes is, to a lot of people a motorbike is high speed toy for a sunny weekend. Some people are doing direct access tests jumping straight onto a 150+mph bike and then only using the bike at weekends and when they do use it, are doing high speeds on twisty roads then unsurprisingly getting themselves into trouble.

If it were the same with cars and a large amount of people were passing their test then jumping into a high performance cars like an Imprezza and only using it at the weekends and going full blast the accident rates would be the same.

Driving a 2 wheeled vehicle you must drive much more defensive than in a car and assume the worst of car drivers, that they can't see you. The CBT should be a good started for learning such techniques.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 19:11 
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The safety debate is more interesting with an electric scooter, the brochure quotes an advantage of it being "nearly silent". I keep thinking of the pedestrian merrily walking out in front as you you do 40+ down the road because they didnt hear you comming.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:01 
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Familyman wrote:
Gizmo wrote:
2) I do not believe in man made global warming AT ALL............


I found this http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/19842304.html quite interesting

Have a read of this:-

http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

It'll take a while but it's worth it.

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 Post subject: My CBT!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:17 
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So, yesterday was the day. I turned up at the place about an hour early to give myself time to get suited and booted and to check out where I had to go. There were three other candidates besides myself. They all had Honda 125s but because I'd said I was interested in a Vectrix, I got an automatic scooter thing. I felt a sense of foreboding as I checked the thing out, and saw that it had been heavily patched up with tape, presumably from when someone came off it. The left mirror was cracked.

I won't give a blow by blow account of the CBT events - anyone reading this has already done it. I personally found that at low speed doing manoeuvering turns that instead of positioning my weight as I would on a bicycle, it was just a case of turning the handlebars. There was no real feel - I couldn't tell if I was about to topple - I didn't.

Doing the figure of eights through the cones, the other guys controlled their low speed by slipping the clutch. I did not have a clutch to slip, and with a slight time lag between adjusting the throttle and the engine adjusting the amount of power delivered to the wheels, I had some problems! I was the only one of the four that nearly collided with a cone and had to put my foot down and stop. But I got it right in the end.

I was in the second pair to go out on the road. When the others came back to the site, one was missing! Turns out that one candidate had to be dropped off at the centre, as it was felt that he was not safe to be on the road. The other candidate buggered off in short order - no CBT and the body language indicated that he might not return.

I was next up along with a young chap of about 20. Luckily, I was familiar with all the roads that we used - including one stretch along which there have been many accidents, and it was dubbed by the press as "the thirteen bends of death". Very reassuring, given that this was my first ever outing! The other candidate wasn't familiar with all the roads, and ended up mounting the pavement after a right turn! The instructor was not happy...

As for me, I got panned, and was told that my "observation is crap". (Ouch! Was I really that bad?) I've got to get used to looking out behind left and right, and those "lifesaver" looks in turns. Well, considering my first outing on the road on a powered 2-wheeled vehicle had started less than an hour previously, I knew I wouldn't get everything right. In hindsight, I feel that a disproportionate amount of my attention was being taken up with dealing with the bike itself - unfamiliar controls, the weight of the thing and handling of it. I also needed four attempts to get the U-turn right. It was a very narrow road, and in the normal course of events, I would not be attempting such a manoeuvre with such limited experience.

The other chap got his DL196, and I didn't. I was going to ask if it was felt I was a hopeless case, and whether I should even be considering this form of transport - see the questions in my original post. But the instructor (and his apprentice) indicated to me that I should come back next week for a couple of 1-2 hour practice sessions, and I'd be all right. I was rapidly gaining confidence on the machine throughout the road session, but ran out of time.

There was another group doing CBT with the same company - I understand that their pass rate was not much different to the 25% pass rate of my own group.

The bumph from all these training places seems to indicate that you can expect to do a day's training and walk away with your DL196 by default. The reality is clearly very different. I find it quite scary to contemplate the old days (the 1970s), in which a young lad of 16 could get a bike of up to 250cc and simply go out on the road with it, with no training whatsoever.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:53 
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Tough luck DieselMoment, better luck next time.

When I did my CBT (it was a few years ago now!) I went with CSM, their instructors were great and it seems they had a very high pass rate. Mind you I was doing a 5 day novice to full licence course which may have made a difference.

We had one day for the CBT, the morning off the road in the compound and we only went onto the roads mid afternoon when the instructors wre happy. It seems your course was a little rushed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:30 
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[quote="DieselMoment"]If you haven't heard of the Vectrix, here is a link with demo - http://tinyurl.com/4nksho


.

You would first have to establish its slot for licencing. There are limitations on what people may ride who dont hold bike licence. If you can ride it legally it should ride just like any other twist and go bike with perhaps a slightly different feel on power delivery. It will be hailed as this great GREEN and economical machine but in order to produce such machines is very UN-GREEN. As far as economy goes, I recon you could do just as well with a second hand moped. You will only know how much electric it costs you when you have to charge it up every day. But I suppose its a sign of the times and down to peoples individual choice. I dont see them selling like hot cakes though and in time they will take longer to bio-degrade than a metal engine :lol: .

quote]


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 15:13 
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Familyman wrote:
Tough luck DieselMoment, better luck next time.

Thank you, FM, for your kind words. It's OK, I don't have any dented pride - none there to dent! And I was told that the extra 1-2 practice sessions should see me right. I don't have to repeat the entire CBT all over again.

Forgot to say in the last post - I also got bollocked for not applying the brakes, ie. slowing down with no brake light showing. But I found that in many cases I could slow down adequately just by closing the throttle, then gently braking at the very end. They said I risked being smacked from behind by a car. I was a bit surprised at that. Surely my rate of deceleration without brakes would not take another road user by surprise? I had to ride faster than I wanted, so that I'd have to brake over a longer distance in order to keep the instructor happy. It was either that or ride the brake with the throttle still open...

During the day, I had it in mind to make a request for some extra practice sessions anyway, until I felt completely confident and at home on this bike. During the road session, I came to realise that the performance of a machine like this is quite adequate for my proposed needs. It got to 40mph quickly enough, and I won't need to go much faster than that, especially as most of the roads where I'll use it are limited to 40 or less anyway. I've no wish to graduate to the "bike scene" or to progress to high performance superbikes. On the way to the "13 bends of death", there's a formidable hill (I can get up it on my bicycle in bottom gear) and this scooter thing sailed up.

Herbie! I take on board what you said. I am told (by the Vectrix people) that the CBT (in addition to my full car licence) is all I need to ride the Vectrix without L plates.
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I dont see them selling like hot cakes though

But until very recently, many people did not see the price of oil rising to $140/bbl, up from $62/bbl in 2006. I'm inclined to think that the best thing would be to negotiate on the new price. I'm not doing this for "GREEN" motives, but for reasons of practicality, cost saving and convenience, so yes - a scooter thing like the one I rode yesterday would do. Getting away from oil (by which I mean ceasing to be at the mercy of OPEC) would be the icing on the cake, and I'd like to be able to start somewhere.

I think the steep Vectrix price is due to no economies of scale (yet), an attempt to recoup their R&D costs, and an opportunist ploy to exact money from those who believe that they'll be saving the planet if they buy one.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 16:45 
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Maybe stricter now or situation different when i was doing my CBT everyone passed it.

Saying that i sat my CBT years ago, when the licences were about to change, i'd be driving on the road before the CBT.

I only really sat my CBT because i needed it to get my full licence which i wanted before it all changed. Prob similar to a lot of people sitting it at the time so they already had road experience.

The life savers are somthing you gotta get used to doing because you need them and if you ever consider sitting full licence they will hammer you if you don't use them.

Low speed manuovers i would have gotten the 125 motorbike rather than the automatic scooter, if you can drive a bike with gears you can drive automatic scooter. Only driven a few automatic scooters but somtimes feel all or nothing, trying to ease the throttle out and suddenly its offski. Having bike with gears maybe easier to concentrate on road positioning, doing the life savers etc...

Use the back brake gently doing the low speed manovers along with throttle control and should feel a lot more stable.

As for engine braking yeah, a lot of the time i use it, keep the revs high and ease of the throttle to slow down a bit, just cover the back brakes whilst doing this will show your brake lights.

Its maybe worth considering doing your full licence once you get your CBT, but do it on a manual motorbike, i know your prob thinking yeah but only want to drive this electric scooter, but will give you more confidence taking some more lessons and plus in the long run save you money since CBT only lasts two years. Plus also as technology gets better maybe find bigger sized electric scooters become avialable.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 17:41 
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Kenny1975 wrote:
Its maybe worth considering doing your full licence once you get your CBT, but do it on a manual motorbike, i know your prob thinking yeah but only want to drive this electric scooter, but will give you more confidence taking some more lessons and plus in the long run save you money since .


Very true

Also taking your bike test will make you a better car driver (well it did to me!)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 18:37 
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DieselMoment wrote:
I've decided to go ahead with it. I'll be doing my CBT next month. After I get my DL196, I'll be able to ride an electric scooter without L plates. Thanks for the suggestions regarding petrol bikes, but I don't want one. I'm going to get immeasurable satisfaction by moving away from oil completely.


There is nothing wrong with oil :x The very plastics in the scooter are made from oil :roll:

DieselMoment wrote:
Well, some of us are different. The case for/against man made global warming is not fully proven either way, but I still think we need to move away from burning fossil fuels. For one thing, it's going to get too expensive to go on as before.


The government make Petrol and Diesel expensive artificially through tax. There is a significant rise due to economic instability but about 2/3rds of what we pay on the fuel and the pump is tax and for no good reason :x

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 09:59 
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I had a go on one of these bikes at a works 'eco day'. I initially thought about one, but would not have been prepared to pay anything like list. The big question I had was how long before you need to replace the batteries and how long before the 50 mile range starts to drop. The dealer didn't know, but I suspect after 1000 charges you'd probably need to replace the batteries. If thats correct these bikes have a major cost at around 40-50k

On a pure economy angle it doesn't stack up. You'd have to over 40,000 miles (800 charges at least assuming no top up charges) to get the money back on the difference between this bike and a 125.]

Then you have the fact that its over 200kg and slower than a 125. There are claims that its as responsive as a 400cc scoot, but with a 0-50 time of 6+ seconds, I don't think so. Next if you run out of charge you can't nip to the petrol station and buy a gallon to get you home. I wondered how the bats would cope with a low speed drop. Which given the mass might cause some problems.

Personally I think it would be much better if they went for a hybrid 50/125cc 4 stroke + electric motor. Then you'd be able to get home if it went flat + you'd probably get 200mpg.

Personally I'd go for a 250 or 400cc scoot, be happy with the 70-90mpg and top speed of 80-100mph ish.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:31 
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diy wrote:
I had a go on one of these bikes at a works 'eco day'. I initially thought about one, but would not have been prepared to pay anything like list. The big question I had was how long before you need to replace the batteries and how long before the 50 mile range starts to drop. The dealer didn't know, but I suspect after 1000 charges you'd probably need to replace the batteries. If thats correct these bikes have a major cost at around 40-50k


Yeah, I can see problems in charging, Ni-MH cells are not totally "memory effect" free as claimed, so if you used around 60% of the capacity on a daily basis you'd have to top them up (bad for the batteries) or run a discharge/recharge cycle, wasting the remaining charge.

I believe the toyota pious uses Ni-MH, I'd be interested to see how they're fairing after 3 or so years.

The current best batteries are the lithium iron phosphate, which are 3 or 4 times the price.

There are batteries in development with higher energy density, claimed 20 year/20,000 charge life expectancies, full charge in 6 minutes. When these are on the market the electric car will come of age. Apart from quick charging they'll allow for fully regenerative braking, unlike todays recapture of as little as 10% or so. Until then anything electrically powered is really more of a developmental prototype.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:38 
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Flynn wrote:
There is nothing wrong with oil :x The very plastics in the scooter are made from oil :roll:


True, but there's something wrong when it costs $140/bbl and there's nothing we can do about it! I still remember the mauling that British motorists ended up getting as a result of the 1973 OPEC oil crisis. I remember going to the Post office to collect my petrol ration coupons! (But I'm too young to remember Suez)

Flynn wrote:
The government make Petrol and Diesel expensive artificially through tax. There is a significant rise due to economic instability but about 2/3rds of what we pay on the fuel and the pump is tax and for no good reason

All governments as long as I can remember have treated the Motorist like a milch cow, or a goose to lay golden eggs for the Treasury. This is particularly true of Labour. It was they who introduced a 25% VAT rate band for petrol (and several other "luxury" commodities) in 1974. They did it just before they knew petrol would have to go up by 8p/gallon because of the crude oil price, whereby they would net another 2p/gallon for themselves. But then it got worse. In one of his numerous "squeeze the rich until the pips squeak" budgets, chancellor Dennis Healey changed the VAT rating of petrol to the standard VAT rate which at that time was 8%. But -and it's a big "but" - he cranked up the level of fuel duty so that the pump price of petrol remained the same. That was to stop business users from claiming the VAT back in their business accounts, so the govt made even more money from motorists.

I will pre-empt PeterE by pointing out that the Tories are not saints either, as it was they who introduced the "fuel escalator" - a fiscal tool which was used to engineer the price of petrol so that it rose by 6% above the rate of inflation. Abolition of this montrous tax was forced upon Tony Blair in the 2000 Fuel Tax Revolt.

My belief is that if the price of oil had not risen so sharply in recent months, Labour would have raised the level of duty on road fuel by a substantial amount, and passed off this amendment as a "green tax". But pressure has been on the government not to make fuel so expensive, so we got "showroom tax" and swingeing increases in VED instead. Apparently there has been yet another climbdown on this! Bottom line is that whatever happens in our economy, we will be paying what the government believes is the maximum we can afford. In the heady days of the 1980s as Labour's tax and spend regime was dismantled, the Tories introduced punitive taxes on company cars. I ran a modest Toyota Corolla in my company, and the company car tax exceeded the total running costs of that car! So it was bought out.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:08 
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Hairyben, gizmo, diy, and anyone else who has expressed concern about the batteries, and the purchase price of the Vectrix: You guys are right - I'm glad I asked your advice in this thread, and I'm altering my point of view. Reading between the lines of the Vectrix propaganda, the claims being made would not work out too well in practice. Sure, it will do 62mph (but one tester said he struggled to achieve that) but your battery will be dead in much less than 68 miles! To do 68 miles, you'd have to keep the speed to 25mph as gizmo says. The claimed battery life is 10 years, but the warranty is only 2 years. Hmmmm. :scratchchin: And they were a little bit misleading with their claim that you only needed CBT and car licence to ride it. True, but you'd still need CBT every 2 years or to take the bike test. They don't mention that of course.

hairyben wrote:
There are batteries in development with higher energy density, claimed 20 year/20,000 charge life expectancies, full charge in 6 minutes. When these are on the market the electric car will come of age. Apart from quick charging they'll allow for fully regenerative braking, unlike todays recapture of as little as 10% or so. Until then anything electrically powered is really more of a developmental prototype.


Yes, I think that sums it up quite nicely. It's a good idea whose time has not yet quite arrived. But I so enjoyed riding that scooter on Friday! So...

diy wrote:
On a pure economy angle it doesn't stack up. You'd have to over 40,000 miles (800 charges at least assuming no top up charges) to get the money back on the difference between this bike and a 125.


You're right. Now that I've actually ridden something, I've since looked at prices of alternatives. Honda produces quality stuff (I used to work for Honda in the 90s) so I checked their website. I'd quite like something like this. The STi125 at £2400. The difference in purchase price between this and the Vectrix would pay for at least 4 years' worth of petrol, and it would also ease the depreciation on my car.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:55 
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dieselmoment sir,

has you were looking at the Honda web site in the Scooter Department, make sure you look at the Innova 125, or what ever it is called. It is the lastest incarnation of the C90 but with a huge 125cc's :D a disc brake, non-comedy suspension and another gear :D :D . Given some degree of basic maintainance will run and run and run and run and run etc. I think they are about £1500 new. But £600 will secure a perfectly good used C90. One thing to consider on this size of bike is weather protection. Smaller bikes are more utilitarian and tend to get used more as a work horse than a toy when the weather is nice.

I think that having a full licence gets you cheaper insurance and it's nice to have the option to ride a big bike and don't say you don't want one untill you've had a go. You will want one, trust me!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 15:47 
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definitely take the bike test. Even if you do it on a 125cc.

Unless you are just doing urban 30mph roads, you really want a bike with a top speed of 80mph. Also 125s go at a premium because they are learner legal. a 250 will cost the same, be a little nippier and, do pretty much the same mpg. With a 250 You'll be able to pull away from traffic and maintain a decent speed on a dual carriage way. But the best scooter on the market today IMO is the Piagio MP3.

Image
http://www.mp3.piaggio.com/index_eng.html

These things can out corner most sports bikes in urban traffic and have double the stopping power, which is always a problem on scoots with small wheels and low CoG (makes them more likely to wash-out). Plus still narrow enough to filter and you don't need to put your feet down to stop. the 250 has a claimed 73mpg and a top speed of 75mph. The X9 is also very comfy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 19:31 
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adam.L wrote:
dieselmoment sir,

has you were looking at the Honda web site in the Scooter Department, make sure you look at the Innova 125, or what ever it is called.


I have to say that as scooters go I am a big fan of the Honda range of twist-n-go bikes. Build quality and spares availibility are second to none. One of my Daughters uses our Honda SFX 50 (I have owned it from new in 1999). It has now done 17,000 miles from new and still going strong. Running costs are negligable. My youngest passed her CBT a year ago and now rides an AJS Raptor (50cc 4 stroke, derived crom the Honda C90 engine). My wife also runs a Suzuki Marauder, also a fine 125cc 4 stroke but a geared bike so maybe not one for you.

Scooters are great fun, easy to look fter and cheap to run, especialy for city riding, I often use the Honda scooter to run into town to save on the obscene parking fees.

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