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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 18:38 
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I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned, or at least restricted to a special license holder, certainly not a DAS graduate. In fact, I think the best thing that could happen to motorcycling would be the abolition of DAS and a staged system that restricts to a 125 for a year and then a 500 for another year. After that, you can get what you want.

I also think maybe now is the time to have a rethink on motorcycling manufacture - there is no reason whatsoever to have a 200bhp machine on public roads and it's just as useless on a trackday. 60bhp is adequate, will still pull 120-130mph in top gear and give an acceleration that will match all but the most top of the range cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 23:26 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned, or at least restricted to a special license holder, certainly not a DAS graduate. In fact, I think the best thing that could happen to motorcycling would be the abolition of DAS and a staged system that restricts to a 125 for a year and then a 500 for another year. After that, you can get what you want.

I also think maybe now is the time to have a rethink on motorcycling manufacture - there is no reason whatsoever to have a 200bhp machine on public roads and it's just as useless on a trackday. 60bhp is adequate, will still pull 120-130mph in top gear and give an acceleration that will match all but the most top of the range cars.


I would hate to journey to the IOM with missus on back two ruck sacks and a tent :lol: I dont agree with banning practices/professional organisations or anything that has shown positive evidence of saving just one life, we all have a part to play in saving life onthe roads. It wasnt that long ago that you passed your bike test by riding round the block and examiner jumped out in front of you and if you didnt hit him you passed :lol: (not quite like that but I hope you get my drift) The other point is that until recent years there was no relationship between horse power and crashes but since the motorcycle popularity/fashion has taken off in a massive way in the last 10 or even 15 yrs along with the availability of cash more older people have taken to bikes and some very older people who took the old test years ago have come on the scene known as the born again set. Now that people can afford anything or get credit for anything the whole playground has changed. The born agains on big bikes by sheer numbers have affected the stats, many of them would have had the same crash I suspect if they were riding a 600 rather than a busa/R1/Fire Blade etc, but they can afford it. I dont believe in banning stuff but I do believe in controls when things get out of hand as they have been recently. I have always been an advocate for better rider training to a far more advanced level than the current test requires I also include car drivers in this and also the instructors and the way they are selected/tested, we all have skeletons in our clossets when it comes to driving/riding, even the reputed best of the best instructors and organisations get it wrong from time to time. I dont think its hard for all of us to be better equipped/trained/tested and qualified for driving/riding, one of the problems in the way of that is the poor or inadequate standards being taught! and the inadequate testing. And the bizarre changes that take place over many years. eg. To improve standards, one thing introduced was parallel parking???? Wouldnt a more advanced brake test have been a greater improvement, or a more detailed eye test or even strait line reversing at pace? :shock: As in life of brian manner.." what has parallel parking ever done for us?" :x ............given us more parking tickets no doubt :roll: I am sadly in favour of restricting any veh capable of incredible levels of performance from road use but not a ban,it is certainly about time the current training restrictions were applied to cars as well. A simple way to reduce young crashers....after test is to reduce their egos and type of veh dad/mum can buy them as well as, 'P' plate for 12 months/no passenger carrying (other than qualified instructor or parent/guardian) for 12 months...ANY minor infringements within 12 months gets ya back to 12 month start point, anything serious =retest. And proof of driving over that period.A big problem for new drivers is that of passengers and their destraction and encouragement levels.The rate at which training and testing has changed in the last 30 or even 40 years is miniscule compared to the changes in veh capability and as quantity has increased, so has danger, shouldnt the training levels have kept up with things too?


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:27 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned, or at least restricted to a special license holder, certainly not a DAS graduate. In fact, I think the best thing that could happen to motorcycling would be the abolition of DAS and a staged system that restricts to a 125 for a year and then a 500 for another year. After that, you can get what you want.

I also think maybe now is the time to have a rethink on motorcycling manufacture - there is no reason whatsoever to have a 200bhp machine on public roads and it's just as useless on a trackday. 60bhp is adequate, will still pull 120-130mph in top gear and give an acceleration that will match all but the most top of the range cars.


Where is the evidence that these bikes are any more dangerous than a 50cc moped with a top speed of 30mph?
50-125cc casualty stats make up over 40% of all bike accidents. Sports bikes are only slightly more highly represented than sports tourers.

DAS has been a huge success as it prepares riders for the test on a vehicle which more closely resembles the type of bike they will likely buy.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:51 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned


Using the same qualifiers then surely many many cars should go the same way then? And that ain't gonna happen.

There's also a large degree of nanny state going on here. It's only a guess but if you take out all the 'smidsys' from the bike death stats how many of them involved anyone else - very few? I go rallying, competing, marshaling and sometimes as part of a film crew. On every occasion we 'sign on' - acknowledging what we are about to do has risks and be it on our own heads. I don't want anyone to get hurt riding a bike (though I've seen idiots push that desire to the limit) but equally it is not a risk free thing to do. It is most often your life in your own hands. If it's in someone else's what you're riding is largely irrelevant.

If we look a banning certain thing because they are dangerous, then we should start with the most dangerous, and that won't be motorbikes if we do.

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 09:09 
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Sounds reasonable, the context of my advice was with regard to 'exploring limits'

Although even the basics of advanced riding theory are useful. Had I not done a course all those years ago, I probably would never have learned to slow on the approach to a bend, get in the right gear and drive round on a constant throttle. Instead I'd have chopped my Sport tourer in for a sports bike 'to get better handling' and continued to ride round bends in top gear with the throttle closed. Then I'd pick up the term 'trail braking' and convince myself that trailing the back brakes in to a bend was the best way to get round. :D

then one day I'd panic - brake hard and ride through a hedge, or another car, like so many (roughly 25%) of rural sport bike fatalities.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 17:28 
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diy wrote:
Sounds reasonable, the context of my advice was with regard to 'exploring limits'

Although even the basics of advanced riding theory are useful. Had I not done a course all those years ago, I probably would never have learned to slow on the approach to a bend, get in the right gear and drive round on a constant throttle. Instead I'd have chopped my Sport tourer in for a sports bike 'to get better handling' and continued to ride round bends in top gear with the throttle closed. Then I'd pick up the term 'trail braking' and convince myself that trailing the back brakes in to a bend was the best way to get round. :D

then one day I'd panic - brake hard and ride through a hedge, or another car, like so many (roughly 25%) of rural sport bike fatalities.
Quote:


I tend to agree, what I see a lot of is exactly that, riders racing up to bends, slamming on the brakes then making the turn 'throttle off'. Most of them are not riding beyond the bike but beyond themselves. If you cant hold constant throttle or even gentle acceleration around bends you (the rider) are going too fast for YOU. Such riders frustrate the hell out of me on track days, they blast passed on the strait then force you to either over brake an d follow them through the corner in a manner you rather wouldnt or you have to risk overtaking (a rider you have no trust in) mid corner. And sometimes this can happen to people on the road and sadly the guilty party is nearly always on a sports bike.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:33 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned, or at least restricted to a special license holder, certainly not a DAS graduate. In fact, I think the best thing that could happen to motorcycling would be the abolition of DAS and a staged system that restricts to a 125 for a year and then a 500 for another year. After that, you can get what you want.

I also think maybe now is the time to have a rethink on motorcycling manufacture - there is no reason whatsoever to have a 200bhp machine on public roads and it's just as useless on a trackday. 60bhp is adequate, will still pull 120-130mph in top gear and give an acceleration that will match all but the most top of the range cars.


If there was no reason there wouldn't be any, unless the bikes exist as art. Not understanding something is a poor reason to ban it. Yours would be a pretty boring world. what would you ban next? Rock music? Asian people?

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 20:33 
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Herbie J wrote:
and sadly the guilty party is nearly always on a sports bike.


because sports bikes are popular? or because sports bike riders are risk seekers? or they like technical roads etc?

Its a bit like saying silver Mercedes drivers are more likely to cut you up than red ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 20:40 
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diy wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
and sadly the guilty party is nearly always on a sports bike.


because sports bikes are popular? or because sports bike riders are risk seekers? or they like technical roads etc?

Its a bit like saying silver Mercedes drivers are more likely to cut you up than red ones.


Not really , I pointed to a specific aspect that actually occurs and in my experience, more frequently nowadays, it has nothing to do with analogy.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 13:50 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I think the latest sports motorcycles are deadly and should be banned

Hear hear! :roll:
And let's ban aeroplanes. And Helicopters.

Yes, sometimes the rider cocks up, sometimes it's other road-users that cock up.

No-one lives forever - get over it.

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 13:54 
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Herbie J wrote:
There has sadly been an increase in bike crashes on this type of machine where in the past size and power had no significant effect on crash cause stats. So is it just popularity of the modern sports bike that is swinging the stats towards big sports bikes or the bikes themselves becoming beyond the capability of even some seasoned riders as manufacturers create more agressive race bikes for the road?

Or is it possibly the general standard of car driving has plummeted?

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 21:29 
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Or the standard of motorcycle riding has plummeted.
I would suggest a lot of sports bikes these days are ridden by idiots with no licenses, or those who have done a DAS course and then go out and buy a GSX-R and wire it into a hedge at 90!


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 14:54 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
Or the standard of motorcycle riding has plummeted.
I would suggest a lot of sports bikes these days are ridden by idiots with no licenses, or those who have done a DAS course and then go out and buy a GSX-R and wire it into a hedge at 90!

I would suggest that a lot of people also pass their car driving test, then go out and buy a ton of metal and hurtle around on a motorway...

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 08:15 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
In fact, I think the best thing that could happen to motorcycling would be the abolition of DAS and a staged system that restricts to a 125 for a year and then a 500 for another year. After that, you can get what you want.

Such a system is already in place, and has been for more years than I care to remember.
Those who the examiner thinks aren't competent enough to handle a "full power" machine, yet he or she is happy that their standard of riding is acceptable for a smaller sized machine are given a restricted license....the restriction being that they cannot ride a machine that makes more than 33BHP for a period of 2 years.

mpaton2008 wrote:
I would suggest a lot of sports bikes these days are ridden by idiots with no licenses, or those who have done a DAS course and then go out and buy a GSX-R and wire it into a hedge at 90!

I'll bet there are a lot more car drivers out there without the relevant paperwork in place than what there are motorcyclists.

As for those who pass the Direct Access and then promptly end up in a hedge, all I can say to that is you cannot teach anybody common sense.
I would also say that acts of stupidity on (or in) high powered machines are not just restricted to motorcyclists either - there are plenty of 17 year old's out there who passed their test and then went & stacked daddy's Porsche up on the same day while showing off.

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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 18:56 
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I did direct access. I don't have a bike that even needs a full licence, but I have the right to choose a bike that I can't really handle and have the right to be hauled out of the scenery by the emergency services after crashing a bike I can't handle.

Men go out with women they can't handle, drink amounts of beer they can't handle, take on debt they can't handle and I want to be able to legaly crash a bike I can't handle. I don't want to crash mind and if anyone would like to donate an SV650 to me I would be gratefull :)


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 02:07 
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I must be getting old because i can see mpatons point of view.

I was dead against changes to the old licence, i sat my full bike test on a Honda C90 and then overnight could ride anything i wanted. Trouble was at the time like a lot of others it wasn't quite so easy as that.

I didn't have much cash, so instead ended up with a £200 Honda Superdream, big bikes seemed to be really expensive back then and HP was a lot harder to get. Even if i could have afforded a big fast bike couldnt have afforded the insurance.

I like a lot of people passing my bike test got wraped up in the whole bike thing and drove like a loon, made stupid mistakes, learned through trial and error, you can teach people all kindas stuff but when they get put in a situation when they have split seconds to actually do it instincts kick in, like going too hot into a corner and grabbing the brake, natural instinct at first.

Being inexperienced and driving a Superdream like a loon yeah you will get into trouble but the end result of that trouble was dented pride, scuffed leather jacket, bit sore for a few days and in the garage straightening things with a scaffy bar. Lessons learned, become a better rider.

These days though it's a lot different, bike prices cheaper in relative terms, HP a lot easier to get. People are getting wrapped up thinking they are Rossi, buying a R6, CBR6 etc... before they have even sat their CBT then doing a quick DAS getting a licence then going out inexperienced and doing stupid things i did and sure others did years ago, the main difference is though on something like even a 650SV can do it at much higher speeds, the handling is much better but in someways gives a false sense of security. When they mess up like i did, in a lot of cases its a lot more serious and at times fatal.

People compare the fast cars argument with the fast bikes argument, its easy to do. But hard to compare the two situations typically different. Cars are like bikes years ago, people tend to be getting their car licence when they are young in their late teens. So typically passing your test don't have a lot of money so its a cheap car, and insurance is a killer so tend to be small engined cars. Rare for a 18 year old to pass their test and be driving a car capable of doing 160mph the next day. People passing their bike test these days to me seem usually to be mid 20's to early 30's, disposable income can afford something nice.

Maybe i am getting old and cynical lol, just know these days on a nice summer sunday places like the west highlands seem like hell on a motorbike, too many nutters on the road on bikes and too many police trying to catch these nutters easy to get caught up in all that.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 13:49 
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:clap: Kenny, you couldn't have said it any better.


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 Post subject: Re: Agressive bikes...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 08:21 
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We shouldn't confuse the difference between having a high exposure to risk and being high risk.

I for example have a very high exposure to risk as I ride 12,000 miles per year mostly in urban city commuting. Despite being a senior obs for the iam and bike safe trainer that gives me roughly the same exposure as a learner on a 125 doing about 1500 miles a year. My per minute/mile exposure will be much lower.

Sports bikes riders have a high exposure to risk. That is entirely different to saying sports bikes are high risk.

There is nothing inherently unsafe about a bike that can do 160mph (e.g. an R6) vs one that can do 115mph (e.g. a CB500).
If you banned sports bikes - all the high risk riders would switch to 80 bhp supermoto's or 100 bhp Beemer GS's Their exposure would be exactly the same:
- they'd still ride technical roads on a sunday afternoon after having a pint over lunch.
- they'd still ride with progress above safety.
- they'd still treat the road like a race track.

and if GS's were the no.1 selling bike we'd see people crying about all the Ewan McGregger wannabes chucking their tractors through hedges
It is not the bike but rider risk, road risk, exposure and volume (multiplied together) that makes sports bikes appear to be over represented.

Now the only thing I would support is making sports bikes more comfortable to ride slower.. the current CBR600RR will give you major back pain if you ride it below 60mph for too long because it relies on you either adopting a racing crouch or having wind pressure to support your weight.


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