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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 18:30 
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I ask this question after many years of biking and owning many bikes in that time. besides individuality and personal choice, what is the point of sports bikes capable of 160 to 180mph ass up head down and on long journeys uncomfortable? What is the point other than perpetual speeding to excess in order to enjoy the ride? I would love to know.

Dont get me wrong , I love all bikes and sports bikes gave me a lot of pleasure on the race track or IOM circuit, I got rid of three sports bikes I owned as i knew it would only be time before I got nicked, I never enjoyed riding much at or around the limits and the only real pleasure came from very high speed and trying to wear out foot pegs on corners. The retro style of bikes I favour and always have done, for the road that is, you can go very fast and slow and enjoy.

I can see practical reasoning for most other bike types even choppers :bunker: but not sports bikes. As far as getting from A to B quickly I dont see that either as my A to B time on all other bikes Ive owned are comparable to the same run on a sports bike ( would not be so if it were a closed road test I admit but doesnt that point again to almost pointless need for one on the road)Ive ridden all sorts on the track and had no greater pleasure than when I rode sports bike or genuine race bike.

Also where riding quick but safe on the road is concerned I dont think there would be many sport bike riders out there who could do a route quicker or safer than I could. ( Im sure they could go a little quicker or even stupid speed but safe? :roll: )

So is sports bike on the road justified other than from a personal choice and fashion angle?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 14:52 
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Why buy a sports bike

+ incredibly light
+ primary safety features are excellent (handling, brakes, tyres suspension)
+ Massive R&D budgets in both the highly competitive 600cc and 1000cc classes which mean:
++ you get a lot for your money
++ very well made and designed
++ tested beyond your limits
++ very reliable - a jap crotch rocket will out perform yer avg beemer in terms of running costs.
+ Small - if you are a lady or under 5'7" a sports bike will fit you better than dual purpose or a sport tourer
+ they correct your inabilities - make you feel like a riding god
+ popular, so there are plenty of dealers and extras to choose
+ Not all are uncomfortable 675 daytona is more comfy than T100 bonnie for long distance riding and Can be ST'd for low budget - i.e. double bubble, gell seat , cruise well at higher speeds
+ demand is high when you want to sell
+ when your mates talk about how fast their cars are - you can say "once you've ridden a GSXR1CBR1000 it puts it in to perspective."
+ power to weight of a F1 car


Why not

- Mpg can be quite low - e.g. mid 30s for a honda
- can be a bit buzzy
- can be cramped for 6' ers
- depreciation is high (always a new model coming out) others mileage will be low
- Can lead you in to a false sense of security
- expensive to insure/highly nickable
- will spit you in the hedge quicker than anything else.
- some are very focussed track machines (but the class leaders tend to be more flexible)
- can be hard to ride slowly (i.e. in traffic)
- will eat consumables (tyres brakes chains etc) quickly


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 17:54 
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diy wrote:
Why buy a sports bike

+ incredibly light
+ primary safety features are excellent (handling, brakes, tyres suspension)
+ Massive R&D budgets in both the highly competitive 600cc and 1000cc classes which mean:
++ you get a lot for your money
++ very well made and designed
++ tested beyond your limits
++ very reliable - a jap crotch rocket will out perform yer avg beemer in terms of running costs.
+ Small - if you are a lady or under 5'7" a sports bike will fit you better than dual purpose or a sport tourer
+ they correct your inabilities - make you feel like a riding god
+ popular, so there are plenty of dealers and extras to choose
+ Not all are uncomfortable 675 daytona is more comfy than T100 bonnie for long distance riding and Can be ST'd for low budget - i.e. double bubble, gell seat , cruise well at higher speeds
+ demand is high when you want to sell
+ when your mates talk about how fast their cars are - you can say "once you've ridden a GSXR1CBR1000 it puts it in to perspective."
+ power to weight of a F1 car


Why not

- Mpg can be quite low - e.g. mid 30s for a honda
- can be a bit buzzy
- can be cramped for 6' ers
- depreciation is high (always a new model coming out) others mileage will be low
- Can lead you in to a false sense of security
- expensive to insure/highly nickable
- will spit you in the hedge quicker than anything else.
- some are very focussed track machines (but the class leaders tend to be more flexible)
- can be hard to ride slowly (i.e. in traffic)
- will eat consumables (tyres brakes chains etc) quickly

Do you sell bikes for a living? :lol:
Slightly off the point I think, Im asking what the point of sports bikes are on public roads........most other models/types can give almost all the listed points but reading through I can still see very little other than personal choice for a sports bike on public roads.(and again I love sports bikes when they can be ridden the way they were designed to be ridden)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 13:22 
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I don't sell bikes, neither do I own a sports bike. I've ridden plenty and would own a sports bike instead of a sport tourer if 80% of my riding was not commuting/distance work.

There aren't many sports bikes that could do the 12,000 mile a year I do without costing a fortune to run.

But the majority of riders do less than 4,000 per year. If the primary purpose is fun - all of the above are valid.

It might be fairer if we pick a specific sports bike against another bike and compare the two.

say a daytona 675 vs. a tiger 1050?
or perhaps a CBR600RR against a VFR800?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 16:25 
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What is the point of this?
Image

When this does the same job
Image

Or these

Steak Dinner
Image

Pottage
Image

Both feed you. So why have steak?

I think anyone who asks "what is the point of...?" should be shot. :bunker:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 18:13 
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theboxers wrote:
What is the point of this?
Image

When this does the same job
Image

Or these

Steak Dinner
Image

Pottage
Image

Both feed you. So why have steak?

I think anyone who asks "what is the point of...?" should be shot. :bunker:


Arent we going off track a little here?
Im not relating the best against the worst possible choices here and yes there is a similar analagy to be drawn between high performance cars and the average car.
Going on about steak and pottage is just silly, as is the statement of shooting someone for raising the question but anyway SADAM I will try and help you.

A sports bike is designed for extreme performance, the only way you can reach those levels of performance is with very high speed and relative (to the nature of the turn) high speed cornering, along with hard acceleration and heavy braking. The only way you can do this on public roads is by extreme speeding and excessive risk taking. To ride within reasonable safety margins on a public road or even slightly beyond such levels can be achieved on many other types of bike that also give a lot of comfort and pleasure at a steadier pace. If its playful riding you want, there are many non sports bikes out there that can give you all the hair curling and bum cheek nipping you want and not all that far from the performance of sports bikes.
So is it just personal preference/choice/fashion/trend.

If you cant answer the question on this topic by giving a reasonable point, ridicule will only go towards a 'no point' angle.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 18:18 
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diy wrote:
I don't sell bikes, neither do I own a sports bike. I've ridden plenty and would own a sports bike instead of a sport tourer if 80% of my riding was not commuting/distance work.

There aren't many sports bikes that could do the 12,000 mile a year I do without costing a fortune to run.

But the majority of riders do less than 4,000 per year. If the primary purpose is fun - all of the above are valid.

It might be fairer if we pick a specific sports bike against another bike and compare the two.

say a daytona 675 vs. a tiger 1050?
or perhaps a CBR600RR against a VFR800?


That may well be the best Idea after all.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 00:53 
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Herbie J wrote:
So is it just personal preference/choice/fashion/trend.

All of the above and more.

Herbie J wrote:
If you cant answer the question on this topic by giving a reasonable point, ridicule will only go towards a 'no point' angle.

It is human nature to push the limits. Some will do this more than others. You will eventually find your personal limit. Unfortunately for some this will step over the line and end up with either serious injury or death. This can happen in any field motorbikes, cars, sky diving and rock climbing to name just a few. Even the sedate pursuits are not immune from unfortunate incidents.

We do it because we can. If we sat back when we found something that worked and said that's sufficient, we end up with a world of trabants and pottage.

Life is a journey. Some do it on a R6, some on a C90. That's the point.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 09:06 
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Herbie J wrote:
A sports bike is designed for extreme performance, the only way you can reach those levels of performance is with very high speed and relative (to the nature of the turn) high speed cornering, along with hard acceleration and heavy braking. The only way you can do this on public roads is by extreme speeding and excessive risk taking.


Thats not entirely true - firstly you can get your knee down at 20mph, so speed is not mandatory, secondly you can experience the handling precision and capability of a sports bike at reasonable speeds on very technical roads. I also dispute that they are designed purely for extreme performance

Look at these two
Image
Image

They are completely different bikes in terms of focus. The 675 has a comfy seat, reasonable screen angle, mirrors that will work, is more upright, the 848 is longer and more extreme.
Herbie J wrote:
To ride within reasonable safety margins on a public road or even slightly beyond such levels can be achieved on many other types of bike that also give a lot of comfort and pleasure at a steadier pace. If its playful riding you want, there are many non sports bikes out there that can give you all the hair curling and bum cheek nipping you want and not all that far from the performance of sports bikes.


name some


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 23:53 
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Some 25 years ago the cover of Bike had a headline of 'Much too fast enough' written by an endurance racer turned tester talking about a GPZ IIRC, They had the same arguement back then. Fast forward 15 years and I did a stint at Classic Bike. We shared offices with MCN and at a get together two of the young bucks at MCN (One is now the editor) just couldn't see the point in any bike that couldn't hit 150mph.

I've always rather enjoyed getting the best out of a bike with modest capabilities. Sure you can get your kicks pushing todays crotch rockets on more technical roads but isn't the fact you can only realistically test there capabilities on very twisty roads just reinforce the point of the original question? And if it's that twisty the guy on the KTM Supermoto will never be out of your mirrors for long.

As in all things there's a perception of what is the finest in its field. And in bikes thanks too MotoGP and WSB etc sports bikes are the ones to be seen on, generally speaking. Add to that the machismo BS - no being seen dead on something a little more sensible (or controllable came to that) I've a TDM900. It has the sort of performance only beaten by the quickest bikes 25 years ago, Yet today it - in the UK at least - it's an 'old mans' bike, dull and never gets a second look.

Sales of supersports stuff had already begun to slide even before the credit crunch. Licences are increasingly at risk and the comics are reporting that even hardened sprots bike riders are finding the latest stuff is well 'much too fast enough' and are looking for more of a challenge, often at lower speeds.

Barkstar
Whose brother is just about to chop his Mille R in for an R1 - :fastasleep:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:42 
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TDM 900, I had one of those for a couple of months.. earlier this year.

Perfect city commuter bike. Good handling and very flickable. But the mirrors are in a stupid place, the engine too vibey and exhausts too wide.

Brakes are off an R6 if I remember ;)

Also - I need to be clear - in my mind a sports bike is 600-750cc Superbikes are 900+

I'm less convinced of the value of any of the current crop of litre super bikes and super tourers also seem a bit daft e.g ZZR, 'busa etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 13:53 
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diy wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
A sports bike is designed for extreme performance, the only way you can reach those levels of performance is with very high speed and relative (to the nature of the turn) high speed cornering, along with hard acceleration and heavy braking. The only way you can do this on public roads is by extreme speeding and excessive risk taking.


Thats not entirely true - firstly you can get your knee down at 20mph, so speed is not mandatory, secondly you can experience the handling precision and capability of a sports bike at reasonable speeds on very technical roads. I also dispute that they are designed purely for extreme performance

Look at these two
Image
Image

They are completely different bikes in terms of focus. The 675 has a comfy seat, reasonable screen angle, mirrors that will work, is more upright, the 848 is longer and more extreme.
Herbie J wrote:
To ride within reasonable safety margins on a public road or even slightly beyond such levels can be achieved on many other types of bike that also give a lot of comfort and pleasure at a steadier pace. If its playful riding you want, there are many non sports bikes out there that can give you all the hair curling and bum cheek nipping you want and not all that far from the performance of sports bikes.


name some

Well if he cant I will.....Bandit 1200 capable of 150mph,with end can up to 120hp at rear wheel, they even have a race series with them.You can ride chilled out or flat out and have lots of other fun why would I need anything else on the road? Ive got a cbr 600 Ive raced in the past and I can get my knee down on that at 20 but I dont need to, but I'd be takin a very very tight corner(severe hairpin) and the bike would be using its performance capability more than you think, getting your knee down any other time at 20 mph is for muppets , showing off and learning very little. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 13:59 
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Barkstar wrote:
Some 25 years ago the cover of Bike had a headline of 'Much too fast enough' written by an endurance racer turned tester talking about a GPZ IIRC, They had the same arguement back then. Fast forward 15 years and I did a stint at Classic Bike. We shared offices with MCN and at a get together two of the young bucks at MCN (One is now the editor) just couldn't see the point in any bike that couldn't hit 150mph.

I've always rather enjoyed getting the best out of a bike with modest capabilities. Sure you can get your kicks pushing todays crotch rockets on more technical roads but isn't the fact you can only realistically test there capabilities on very twisty roads just reinforce the point of the original question? And if it's that twisty the guy on the KTM Supermoto will never be out of your mirrors for long.

As in all things there's a perception of what is the finest in its field. And in bikes thanks too MotoGP and WSB etc sports bikes are the ones to be seen on, generally speaking. Add to that the machismo BS - no being seen dead on something a little more sensible (or controllable came to that) I've a TDM900. It has the sort of performance only beaten by the quickest bikes 25 years ago, Yet today it - in the UK at least - it's an 'old mans' bike, dull and never gets a second look.

Sales of supersports stuff had already begun to slide even before the credit crunch. Licences are increasingly at risk and the comics are reporting that even hardened sprots bike riders are finding the latest stuff is well 'much too fast enough' and are looking for more of a challenge, often at lower speeds.

Barkstar
Whose brother is just about to chop his Mille R in for an R1 - :fastasleep:


Excelent post in keeping with the posted question. :clap: But as it was then it is now, not a full and concluding answer, but the best post yet I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 14:18 
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theboxers wrote:
Herbie J wrote:
So is it just personal preference/choice/fashion/trend.

All of the above and more.

Herbie J wrote:
If you cant answer the question on this topic by giving a reasonable point, ridicule will only go towards a 'no point' angle.

It is human nature to push the limits. Some will do this more than others. You will eventually find your personal limit. Unfortunately for some this will step over the line and end up with either serious injury or death. This can happen in any field motorbikes, cars, sky diving and rock climbing to name just a few. Even the sedate pursuits are not immune from unfortunate incidents.

We do it because we can. If we sat back when we found something that worked and said that's sufficient, we end up with a world of trabants and pottage.

Life is a journey. Some do it on a R6, some on a C90. That's the point.


It is nature to push limits but all the limits you point out can and have been done on closed roads/circuits/racing, I have nothing against the individual taking his or her bike somewhere private or on track days and going for it. Your last line is not the point. The point is a question relating to use on a public highway where other types of bike can give more than enough performance and pleasure and are often seen being ridden beyond that of the sports bike rider, many of whom you often see not riding a sports bike anywhere near its capability. If you believe its human nature for people to push limits on the open road taking all the additional risks that go along with that not to mention risking others,in an enviroment where the bike cannot really be pushed that much in most cases even by the best, you may have a point about people but not the point about the bikes. Most people who own sports bikes cannot ride to extreme levels, some can hardly ride the bike safely within the limits, most sports bike riders will never ride to a level where they will experience real feel from the bike. So my question still stands, what is the point on a public highway of the new generation of sports bike?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 19:35 
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To be honest I think part of the thrill is being able to show off with the latest and greatest and some of the latest designs do look rather good.

I don't think anyone out there (other than the absolute outright idiots, or full time racers) would even _attempt_ to get anywhere close to the maximum performance of a modern bike on public roads as you'd be dead before you got to it, so in that respect it is a waste of time. I would much rather manufacturers stopped wasting time reducing engine mass by 0.1kg and ekeing out 2bhp extra each year and concentrated on giving us useful improvements such as improving fuel economy which is quite frankly atrocious on bikes. I don't know about others but I'd prefer 70mpg and 100mph than 25mpg and 180mph. BMW are moving along the right lines with the new series of 800cc twins which still give the performance of a Ferrari, without the running costs of a Hayabusa.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 08:34 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
To be honest I think part of the thrill is being able to show off with the latest and greatest and some of the latest designs do look rather good.

I don't think anyone out there (other than the absolute outright idiots, or full time racers) would even _attempt_ to get anywhere close to the maximum performance of a modern bike on public roads as you'd be dead before you got to it, so in that respect it is a waste of time. I would much rather manufacturers stopped wasting time reducing engine mass by 0.1kg and ekeing out 2bhp extra each year and concentrated on giving us useful improvements such as improving fuel economy which is quite frankly atrocious on bikes. I don't know about others but I'd prefer 70mpg and 100mph than 25mpg and 180mph. BMW are moving along the right lines with the new series of 800cc twins which still give the performance of a Ferrari, without the running costs of a Hayabusa.


The running costs tend to be pretty equal across the board with all large m/bikes.
The cost of purchase tends to be low with replacement parts being high-cost items.
I wouldn't call any bmw a low-running-cost machine, if you look at the cost of things like brake pads/discs/tyres.
Fuel economy is ok on mine, with average of 50+ just cruising about, it gets worse when "opened up", but fuel injection tends to be better than carbs anyway.
As for not being able to do full speed on roads...I've seen 140 on the clock...at 4 in the morning...a nice empty dual carriageway...speed didn't kill.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 09:38 
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I've not ridden anything like a litre sports bike so cannot comment really on what they are like to ride.

My 89hp car has enough umph to get me banned, so does a 10 year old CB500. If and when finances allow (I'm a tight wad/ solvent type) me to my a bike that is less utilitarian and more playfull I'll get something that I can get the best out of. But I want the right to pass my Direct Access and jump on a ZX10R, not that I did. Most people don't for whatever reason, but we should have the right to.

I saw an R1200 GS being ridden in heavey traffic in London on Tuesday, when all the smart riders were astride C90's and carving up the queues like they weren't there. But Mr R1200-GS had paid his (considerable amount) money and taken his choice.

A litre sports bike probably still makes more sense in the UK than a Shirley Davidson, at least they will corner, work and don't need polishing every 500yds.

When my Premium Bond ship comes saling into town, I will be test riding: SV650s, CBR600F and a BMW F800. Honda as the advantage of me being able to walk to the dealer.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:31 
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mpaton2008 wrote:
I would much rather manufacturers stopped wasting time reducing engine mass by 0.1kg and ekeing out 2bhp extra each year and concentrated on giving us useful improvements such as improving fuel economy which is quite frankly atrocious on bikes. I don't know about others but I'd prefer 70mpg and 100mph than 25mpg and 180mph.


The bike you seek is already here,the Yamaha TDM900, though I may be a little bias :roll: . Though Bike magazine managed to get a whole 44mpg on their test, more conventional riders (those that use gears 4,5 and 6 :lol: ) easily get 60mpg and if you're feeling the need to be frugal you can get over 70mpg. Combine that with all day comfort, and a 200+ mile tank range and if you must it'll top 130mph. It's why I got one as I'm touring Norway for my hols and and though any number of Jap 4s would do the job they don't have that winning combo of good mpg and range. Some Beemers also fit the bill but the Ewan and Charlie effect has put them out of my wallets range unless they're worn smooth heaps. As is often the case the TDM never sold well here because it does everything well but nothing exceptionally. On the Continent they're mad for them - but then they're into going places and not just out for a pose on a Sunday. And regular servicing isn't too bad either - the biggie involves valve clearances but thats only every 24K.

Interesting Bike did back to back tests with a bunch of readers. Can't remember which crotch rocket they used but they had one standard and one with the fueling maps and cams from a street bike that used the same motor de-tuned. pretty much all the riders prefered the de-tuned version and it had only a few less bhp but a fair bit more torque.

Barkstar

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 16:27 
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What is the point of a Lambougini or a Ferrari or a Veyron on the public road?

The point is that they are the pinnacle of their fields.

The question you should ask is "What is the point of buying a litre sports bike and not riding it every day?"

75k miles on an R1 before the cam chain tensioner let go :cry:

I commuted every day on my bike for 10 years or so and can probably ride most bikes now in all weathers. The only weather that stopped me was snow, although black ice was "interesting".

At the end of the day you may as well agree with the pr*ck who wanted to ban 100mph+ cars because they were more than enough to do the job.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 22:24 
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R1Nut wrote:
What is the point of a Lambougini or a Ferrari or a Veyron on the public road?

The point is that they are the pinnacle of their fields.

The question you should ask is "What is the point of buying a litre sports bike and not riding it every day?"

75k miles on an R1 before the cam chain tensioner let go :cry:

I commuted every day on my bike for 10 years or so and can probably ride most bikes now in all weathers. The only weather that stopped me was snow, although black ice was "interesting".

At the end of the day you may as well agree with the pr*ck who wanted to ban 100mph+ cars because they were more than enough to do the job.

Again, very few are comming up with a viable point to the question.And why should I agree with someone who wanted to ban 100mph cars, what the hell has that got to do with the question. I have no doubt some are getting a little riled about the question but isnt that just frustration and no viable answer? I have no doubt someone who raced a bike could give me many many ligitimate reasons for a sports bike but when it comes to reasons for one on a public highway I can only see a few and judging by some fired up replies so can they.


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