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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 15:11 
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Moves are now afoot to make the wearing of Hi-Vis vests compulsory for all riders of powered two wheelers throughout the EU.

THERE'S NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO JOIN MAG!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 16:42 
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I'm asking purely for my understanding (please know that I don't have a strong opinion on this issue):

What is reason for the resistance against bikers wearing hi-vis? I appreciate motorcyclists already use daytime running lights to help themselves be seen, but even that isn't enough to prevent SMIDSYs.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 18:44 
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Maaarrghk! wrote:
Moves are now afoot to make the wearing of Hi-Vis vests compulsory for all riders of powered two wheelers throughout the EU.

THERE'S NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO JOIN MAG!!!
I know all about it Maaaarrghk, (have for some time now), and went on the latest MAG run into Birmingham last weekend.


Steve wrote:
I'm asking purely for my understanding (please know that I don't have a strong opinion on this issue):

What is reason for the resistance against bikers wearing hi-vis?
Because I think I would be noticed more if I rode stark bollock naked with a stiffy! The question is, or should be, why doesn’t a driver see a very seeable object?

We are expected to see road signs.

We are expected to see and observe speed limits.

But, but, OH NO! I didn’t see something 10 times bigger than that moving with bright lights!

THE RESONSIBILITY SHOULDN’T BE ON THE BIKER TO BE LIT UP LIKE A F :censored: N CHRISTMAS TREE FFS! Where do you draw the line? Hi Viz for pedestrians ? Well why not? They act like morons as they cross the road oblivious to traffic so why not?


The glaringly obvious problem here, I hope, is that the drivers should use observation, skill and spatial awareness. To keep putting the onus of drivers not killing others on everyone else to compensate for their bad driver behaviour is simply ridiculous!

Attack the cause, not the accident!

Next step - Cyclists...

They’re small and not very seeable so: -

Compulsory Hi-Viz jacket, compulsory helmet, compulsory ‘sticky out thing’ from the right of the bike to make drivers aware they may be getting too close. Compulsory armoured 'biker' raiment. Compulsory Davy lamp on the top of the helmet. Spikes sticking out everywhere on my bike to deter and educate drivers that you are getting too close and that size does matter – any size! (Including the one in my pants)


BTW, I do have an opinion on this :wink:

P.S. Not for the first time, how about a compulsory eye test every year or two? :banghead:

P.P.S. Is it Mark for short? :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 18:55 
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Tell you what!

I'll wear a Hi Viz jacket if the only colour of car you can buy in future is in bright fluorescent Yellow or Orange.

Fair? Is that a deal?


Well, people pull out in front of other cars all the time do they not? So the cure is obviously to make them more visible...

'You can can have any color you like so long as it's not black' (I even used the American word for colour :D )

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 22:15 
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Big Tone wrote:
I'll wear a Hi Viz jacket if the only colour of car you can buy in future is in bright fluorescent Yellow or Orange.

Fair? Is that a deal?

I wouldn't laugh too hard that that, I can see that one coming too...

For your parallel to work properly, the colour of the motorbike would also have to be so affected.

As valid as your points may be, they don't answer my question: why the resistance? Is it a fashion thing, and/or the cost of buying new togs, or something else?

Several of my colleagues wear hi-viz vests (proper kit: florescent with retro-strips) when riding pedal cycles, yes even during the summer days (these guys aren't concerned with going as fast as possible). It would be good to consider the question from their point of view. I don't wear high-viz, nor do I want to - so please help me :)

For information, I suspect this BMJ report is what prompted the move towards high-viz.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 22:44 
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Why don't drivers see motorcyclists? Well, one reason is that motorcyclists often do things that put themselves unnecessary danger. For example, sitting in the driver's blind spot or filtering past a line of cars at too fast a speed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 00:22 
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I have no problem with wearing Hi Vis on my bicycle - from choice - and if figures are available to back this up, then there might be more riders of all types CHOOSING to wear Hi Vis.
However.
Unless the policy is imposed on ALL road users, then there should be no compulsion IMHO.

I was on the M6 tonight, and a group of highway workers were commencing setting out cones to cone off lane 3 near Lancaster.
There was a 50 limit advised by the centre message boards - then a huge lorry with a flashing keep left arrow and lots of Hi Vis paint and stripes - which very effectively hid the workmen in their personal Hi Vis from vehicles approaching them, until they got close enough to discern movement and cones moving!
They should have been wearing PINK - they would have then stood out from the back of the cushion wagon!

Incidentally, has anyone noticed if any one colour of vehicle is less easily seen than any other?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 03:33 
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Steve wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
I'll wear a Hi Viz jacket if the only colour of car you can buy in future is in bright fluorescent Yellow or Orange.

I wouldn't laugh too hard that that, I can see that one coming too...
Me too Stave. More elf-n-safety :doh:

Steve wrote:
For your parallel to work properly, the colour of the motorbike would also have to be so affected.
True, and I did see that coming. :wink: But all modern motorbikes, (including my 6+ year old jalopy), has the lights on continuously. There is no light switch except for main and dip. I have a bank of four lights at the front, two on dip plus two side lights, so if that isn’t enough or better than a Hi Viz then I don’t know what is.

This is why I say the legislation, if it comes-in over here, is not addressing the real problem. It is instead saying that stupid drivers or drivers with poor vision can’t see me well enough therefore I need to wear something to make me stand out as an addition to my four lights :? That’s just ridiculous IMO!

Steve wrote:
As valid as your points may be, they don't answer my question: why the resistance? Is it a fashion thing, and/or the cost of buying new togs, or something else?
I think fashion is possibly a part of it, certainly more so than a Hi Viz jacket which really aren’t that expensive. Just to clarify, I do wear one on my bicycle and sometimes on my motorbike in the dark winter days but that is more because if some numpty does knock me off I can say “well what more could I have done?” which may make my claim easier. I personally don’t believe that the Hi Viz is going to make the difference to a SMIDSY because if they can’t see over 110 watts of light then I strongly suspect the reason is with the driver, not me being ‘invisible’.

There are some bikers I see who think a black motorbike and gear looks cool. I’m one of them in fact although mine happens to be a ‘loud’ bright orange colour and yet I have still had drivers pull in front of me, and while wearing a Hi Viz jacket! :banghead: They just aren't looking properly; the problem is with the driver :loco:

I can't remember what thread I was reading here long ago but I'm sure someone said words to the effect that, for instance, if everyone has their lights on and it becomes the norm then drivers get used to it to the detriment of anyone without lights. And so you end up with all vehicles looking like police cars and motorbikes to subsitute for poor observation. Is that really what we all want?

Where do we draw the line on this type of thing? It’s like making all pedestrians wear stab proof jackets to try and prevent stabbings instead of coming down on the perpetrator. I can't believe, in 2011, we still don't have a compulsory eye test for all motorists :o

I'm going to put my googles and cricket box on now and go to bed. Well, you can't be too careful :D

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 07:50 
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As usual, the responsibility for safety lies with all road users and I don't accept your assertion that "the problem is with the driver". This is undoubtedly so in many cases but motorcyclists and pedal cyclists should take care not to do things which put them at additional risk.

Perhaps the "Think Bike" ad campaign would be more usefully changed to "Bikers - Think!"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 13:03 
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Quote:
Incidentally, has anyone noticed if any one colour of vehicle is less easily seen than any other?


I've always found the modern trend towards silver/grey cars to be the worst to spot on a dull/ dismal day when they have no lights. The colour tends to become similar to the road colour.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:35 
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I expect it will become legislation sooner or later because these days you only have to make a case for anything in the name of safety, no matter how tenuous the link, and it’s as good as law.

I agree with you Malcolm that it’s about responsibility but I think the responsibility cuts both ways. My concern is that if drivers can’t see properly it shouldn’t be the biker who ‘suffers’ or gets put-out because this isn’t about bikers but all road users. If drivers can’t see properly or have poor observation skills it isn’t just bikers who get hit but pedestrians, cyclists and other cars. (And we do know this is happening).

So for myself, I can only refer to what I’ve already said; -

Quote:
I'll wear a Hi Viz jacket if the only colour of car you can buy in future is in bright fluorescent Yellow or Orange.
(I understand and agree with your point Steve. That to be fair, the actual bike should be the same colour too).

Quote:
I have a bank of four lights at the front, two on dip plus two side lights, so if that isn’t enough or better than a Hi Viz then I don’t know what is.

Quote:
..is not addressing the real problem.

Quote:
if they can’t see over 110 watts of light then I strongly suspect the reason is with the driver, not me being ‘invisible’.

Quote:
They just aren't looking properly; the problem is with the driver.

Quote:
..you end up with all vehicles looking like police cars and motorbikes to substitute for poor observation. .

And it’s my last point which worries me most about this legislation and where it’s leading us. It’s the dumbing down of society so that the very worst drivers can carry on being, well, exactly that!

Slippery slope and a case of be careful what you wish for IMHO. Today bikers, tomorrow Hi Viz for all pedestrians at night. It could happen guys... :wink:

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 00:02 
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Big Tone wrote:
Today bikers, tomorrow Hi Viz for all pedestrians at night. It could happen guys... :wink:

Nothing wrong with that! :twisted:

Next you will be telling us that pedestrians will be expected to follow their instructions in the Highway Code! :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 16:50 
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Well in all seriousness, the chances are that KSI would doubtless significantly decrease if peds did all wear Hi Viz. I’m sure we’ve all seen small kids on a school outing or Walking Bus wearing them so why not for adults?

It doubtless comes down to money, as always. It’s the only thing which trumps safety. I’m seeing increased numbers of signs lately saying the road lights are going to be switched off between certain hours. So after going to all the time, trouble and expense to put these extra street lights up in the name of safety and “if it saves just one life” they needn’t have bothered erecting them in the first place.

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 19:44 
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Thanks for picking this one up and running with it Tone. I spread myself rather too thinly across the net these days so left this to fester for a while.

It's M! for short by the way - saves counting all those a's.

Stephen. For me it's not a matter of fashion, it's a matter of free choice, in this particular matter. What is so wrong with that all of a sudden?

Sometimes I will wear a Hi Vis, and other times I will not. I am a reasonable adult and should be trusted to make assessments and choices in these matters for myself - I would even extend that to the wearing of a helmet if I were allowed. Likewise others should also be allowed to make up their own minds.

Advise me if you wish - I have no problem with that, but please do not try to legislate me into complying with a narrow minded set of beliefs as to what is considered "safe".

As a brief aside, there are also wheels in motion to force all new bikes in the EU to have ABS and "The Road" (MAG's magazine) has had a number of recent letters from irate individuals claiming that they have a "right" to not have a choice in this matter. It's attitudes like this that put the "AAARRGH !" in Maaarrghk!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 19:59 
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Maaarrghk! wrote:
Stephen. For me it's not a matter of fashion, it's a matter of free choice, in this particular matter. What is so wrong with that all of a sudden?

I haven't said anything is wrong with not wearing it. I merely wish to understand the motivations of others.


PS, you have a personal message. Please do check your PM inbox.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 16:22 
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I hope that I have helped you understand the motivation of at least one other Stephen. :)

Afraid I can't get hold of that personal message as changing from BT to TalkTalk has denied me access to Outlook Express, replacing it with Yahoo Mail. Apparently it's a Microsoft thing and they will charge me several limbs to sort it out. Sorry.

If you want to understand further, then I do recomend that you visit the Motorcycle Action Group (MAG) website. Mag can provide a far more eloquent and articulate understanding than any that I could hope to offer you.

Copies of MAG's magazine (The Road) can be found for sale to non members at various motorcycle shops up and down the country - and it's a right good read for only 2 quid.

Who knows? Maybe you might find you would like to join up!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 17:01 
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Maaarrghk! wrote:
I hope that I have helped you understand the motivation of at least one other Stephen. :)

I'm afraid something is wrong with your understanding.

Maaarrghk! wrote:
Afraid I can't get hold of that personal message

You can access all your personal messages directly within any of the forum pages; you don't need Outlook, Thunderbird, etc to access them.

There should be "(x new message)" displayed somewhere near the top of every page. Simply click on that text to go to your PM inbox, the rest is straightforward.

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