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 Post subject: Woman videos own crash
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 16:04 
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Found this on a biker site. Scroll down to see stills and the story and there's a link to the video.

http://www.smoothcurvesracing.com/home.php

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 16:27 
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I'm so impressed with the all round attitude and intelligent approach. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:07 
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We debated this in survival skills on VD a few months back.

From memory my only observations were that she didn't seem to react to lane sheer that was going on on her right hand side. i.e. as the flow in her lane was moving faster than the flow in the right hand lane there was a risk of someone pulling in front.

secondly we concluded that the car (honda?) must have had some sort of mechanical failure to cause the braking behaviour. most likely faulty suspension/brakes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:44 
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diy wrote:
We debated this in survival skills on VD a few months back.
:shock: - use protection! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 19:57 
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My comment is regarding an awareness of bikes advert that used to be shown on tv. The scenario is of a car coming up to a right hand turn, and as it turns, a bike comes up on the driver side and there is a crash. And it's telling the car driver to watch out for bikes! Clearly, you wouldn't expect a car to try and pass you on the right hand side when you were indicating to turn right, so why the hell would a bike do it, and to add insult to injury, the car is (supposedly) in the wrong? I can only assume that this ad was pulled because it was clearly wrong, but I could never understand the logic of it. Bikes are also a menace when they are oncoming, on YOUR side of the road, because they're passing traffic on their side. Then there's the ones who weave in and out of the traffic, and are particularly hazardous whilst waiting at lights and there they are, almost scraping the side of your car. I have nothing against bikes, just some of the morons who ride them


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 20:08 
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Kim wrote:
My comment is regarding an awareness of bikes advert that used to be shown on tv. The scenario is of a car coming up to a right hand turn, and as it turns, a bike comes up on the driver side and there is a crash. And it's telling the car driver to watch out for bikes!

[...]

I could never understand the logic of it.


The 'logic' is that it really is a whole lot more important to look out for each other than to try and determine blame.

Avoiding a crash is something that almost all crash involved drivers or riders have in their power - so it makes sense to avoid the crash even if you're in the right.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 20:10 
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Kim wrote:
My comment is regarding an awareness of bikes advert that used to be shown on tv. The scenario is of a car coming up to a right hand turn, and as it turns, a bike comes up on the driver side and there is a crash. And it's telling the car driver to watch out for bikes!
Hi Kim, :hello:

I think the point is that we should all try not to be involved in accidents, regardless of whether someone else is driving or riding badly/stupidly. Would you feel ok if you were involved in a crash where someone died, even if they were substantially or totally at fault by, for example, overtaking you while you were turning right? Wouldn't you forever think "if only I'd checked my mirror first, that person would still be alive"?

This site is all about defensive driving and riding, and what makes the roads safer. In the advert you are talking about both the driver and rider had an opportunity to observe each other and avoid an accident. They both failed. If that happens in the real world someone could die. Apportioning blame doesn't help the deceased, or those whose lives are permanently blighted by guilt because of what they did not do. but could have done.

Edit: beaten to it! Damn your brevity Paul :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 20:24 
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Sorry, but I still don't understand why the ad is blaming the car driver. My point is that bikes are always (or very often) driving in an erratic/unsafe manner. The bike was behind the car, and if a car is indicating, isn't it also the responsibility of the bike to watch what's going on in frront of him.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 20:27 
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IIRC, the ad was pulled because the message wasn't clear. IMO, they wanted to say what myself and Safe Speed noted above, but the message didn't come across and left bikers and drivers blaming each other and arguing about the meaning of the ad, instead of accepting that they could both have prevented the accident in the first place.

They're getting a bit better now with separate ads aimed at the different groups. That way the message isn't lost in all the arguing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 09:29 
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But the latest one, 'the legs you'll never use again' appears to blame the rider for swerving and losing control when someone opens a car door on him without looking. The message is supposed to be 'don't get complacent on familiar roads' but comes across as 'you're a biker so if you have an accident and get hurt, even if you didn't cause it, it'll be your fault it happened'.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in between.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 09:42 
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MrsMiggins wrote:
IIRC, the ad was pulled because the message wasn't clear.


I didn't know the ad was pulled. Can anyone tell me a) IF it was pulled and b) WHY it was pulled?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 14:58 
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MickW wrote:
But the latest one, 'the legs you'll never use again' appears to blame the rider for swerving and losing control when someone opens a car door on him without looking. The message is supposed to be 'don't get complacent on familiar roads' but comes across as 'you're a biker so if you have an accident and get hurt, even if you didn't cause it, it'll be your fault it happened'.

I can't say I've seen the ad, but are you sure you're not reading things into it that aren't there? If you're riding a bike, are involved in an accident and end up in a wheelchair it's scant consolation if it turns out that the accident wasn't your fault. Isn't that what the ad is trying to get across? From your description I think the message is:

"Other people sometimes do stupid things that could hurt motorcyclists - try to keep out of their way."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 08:32 
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Kim wrote:
The bike was behind the car, and if a car is indicating, isn't it also the responsibility of the bike to watch what's going on in frront of him.


Just a bit of wild conjecture, but in that example what would happen if the car had an indicator out? You and I can probably tell by the speed of the dash repeater that there's something amiss, but the average driver can't. Yes in that advert the biker is to blame for the accident, but isn't the idea to avoid the accident in the first place? Who ever was to blame, most accidents can be avoided by either of the involved parties.

And a polite request. I don't appreciate the comment that all bikers ride in an erratis/unsafe manner. We might do things that you don't expect but if you're looking out for us properly then it shouldn't bother you. I'll guarentee that 9 times out of 10 the rider is 100% in control and fully aware of the conditions and layout of the road around them.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:38 
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Actually I said SOME of the morons who ride them, and I'm sure you don't belong in that category, so calm down. However, if you were waiting at lights, in two lanes of traffic, and some scooter/bike rider came between the two lanes within inches of your car, wouldn't that conern you at all? Or if you were driving along minding your own business, and a bike came hurtling toward you on YOUR side of the road, because it was passing traffic on it's own side, wouldn't that scare you just a bit? I'm saying this as a car only driver, so I can't put myself in your position and ASSUME the bike knows what it's doing. I'm also saying it as someone who was forced into another lane by a lorry who took the wrong lane on a roundabout, then cut straight across, but took my car with him. So forgive me if I seem overly jumpy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:04 
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Kim wrote:
Actually I said SOME of the morons who ride them, and I'm sure you don't belong in that category, so calm down. However, if you were waiting at lights, in two lanes of traffic, and some scooter/bike rider came between the two lanes within inches of your car, wouldn't that conern you at all? Or if you were driving along minding your own business, and a bike came hurtling toward you on YOUR side of the road, because it was passing traffic on it's own side, wouldn't that scare you just a bit? I'm saying this as a car only driver, so I can't put myself in your position and ASSUME the bike knows what it's doing. I'm also saying it as someone who was forced into another lane by a lorry who took the wrong lane on a roundabout, then cut straight across, but took my car with him. So forgive me if I seem overly jumpy.


The problem here, and it's a well know part of the human condition is that we see 'a behaviour' then project it onto anything that looks similar. It's an easy mistake to make because that's the way we're designed. Memory works only by association.

But there are nutters and idiots everywhere using all transport modes. Nevertheless, the vast majority AREN'T nutters OR idiots using any transport mode. (Although, naturally there are more idiots on buses :hehe: )

As a driver or rider, it pays to assume the worst, but we also have to guard against punishing the innocent...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:49 
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Kim wrote:
However, if you were waiting at lights, in two lanes of traffic, and some scooter/bike rider came between the two lanes within inches of your car, wouldn't that conern you at all?

I commute on my bike every day and I always filter to the front of the queue at red lights. That's one of the main advantages of using a bike instead of a car and not one I'm willing to give up.

If you are worried about bikes/scooters passing your vehicle too close you can help yourself by ensuring that, before you stop, you position your car within your lane to allow a decent-size gap between you and the vehicle you are queueing beside. That way the bike will have plenty of room to filter and won't have to come 'within inches' of your car at all.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 13:57 
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Well there you have it, I can only help myself can't I, and I do stay within my lane. However I can't control what the car coming alongside me is going to do, and whether there's room or not, some bikes will always squeeze into a gap that's obviiously too tight!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 14:52 
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That's a common misconception, that you can only control your own actions and are powerless to control everyone else. In fact it's false and is one of the first things you learn as an advanced driver/rider. None of us exist in a vacuum and our actions influence other road users, whether we want them to or not.

In the case of the filtering motorcyclist you can choose to do nothing, help or hinder. Unless you drive to work in a Hummer there is easily enough room in your lane for your car with space left over for a filtering bike. You can increase the 'filter space' by positioning your vehicle further to the left or right of your lane as appropriate, regardless of whether or not the lane alongside you is already occupied.

Please remember that all the motorcyclist wants to do is get safely to the front of the queue. They don't want to annoy you, scare you or hold you up. In fact, if they see you deliberately make space the chance is good that you'll get a friendly wave, nod or even leg-wave. :) (sometimes you can't take your hands off the bars to say thanks)

You should also bear in mind that the space the bike is filtering through is probably significantly wider than you perceive it to be. The width of your car is extended significantly by your wing mirrors. The thing that most often stops me in a queue is where 2 cars are exactly side by side with wing mirrors level. There'd be plenty of room to get by if either vehicle would move forward by a foot or so, but all too often they just sit there, staring straight ahead while blocking my progress. Do I use that example to say that car drivers are idiots? Of course not. As a road user it's my job to deal with the situation and move on.

As a matter of interest, how do you know that the gap the bike is squeezing into is 'too tight'?

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 Post subject: woman videos own crash
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 15:01 
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Mrs Miggins
How do you know it's not?
As you say, all he wants to do is get to the front of the queue, why can't he just wait like (most) other vehicles do? What you're saying is that everyone on the road has to think for you and accomodate your driving whether you're right or wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 15:07 
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So you don't want the bike to get in front of you in the queue? Are we now getting to the nub of your problem? You see all motorcycles as 'queue-jumpers'?

As for making allowances for the actions of other road users, of course you should. That's the essence of safe driving.

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