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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 17:47 
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Gizmo wrote:
So we have to get off and walk our bikes when we are near kids or on gravel.


Oh come off it.

Gizmo wrote:
Or do we have to dress like mad max just in case somebody else does something stupid.
The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by some body else, as this looks like it was. So why are we stupid.


No, other people shouldn't be stupid should they. Unfortunately, they are - bit of a pisser I know.

Gizmo wrote:
You said he was stupid to fall off....was that realy the case.. :roll:


Yes, it was. :roll: :roll: :roll: (I can do those too)

Gizmo wrote:
Why do we have to compensate for bad roads, stupid motorists, stupid pedestrians, poor road signs, diesel spills and a hundred other man made preventable hazards.


Why do I have to pay for other peoples' stupidity when they wind up in hospital after getting stuck on a mountainside, rescued from hurling seas, pulled out of their smoking wreck pissed as a fart, or lying on the operating theatre table having extensive skin grafts because they didn't take sufficient precautions for the own safety.

Freedom doesn't actually mean just doing what the hell we like when we like, we belong to a society and (should) have a sense of personal repsonsibility - we don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
BUT, we have to strike a balance between nannying and just being plain daft :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 18:13 
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Rigpig wrote:
Freedom doesn't actually mean just doing what the hell we like when we like


Well actualy yes it does. But it looks like there are some who have forgotten that.. :wink:

The law should be there to protect the innocent, not take away freedom.

In any case riding in tee shirt and shorts is not illegal.......yet :P

The day I HAVE to dress up like Robocop to get on my bike is the day I hang up my keys.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 18:33 
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Rigpig wrote:
Gizmo wrote:
Jeeeeeeez I can't believe you are being so anal about it


Anal??????? :loco:

Because I was the one who had to sort out the smashed up bike that was leaking petrol, apply temporary dressings to his gaping wounds whilst not puking up, get someone to calm the kids down and at the same time calm him down to prevent him from going into shock.


Jeff - I would never ever describe you as "anal". Common sense views and rarely do we actually disagree anyway :wink:

Rare talent of keeping calm in a crisis displayed there and I bet you saved his life too. bow:

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Or perhaps I shouldn't have been so anal about helping him and just left him there, it was his decision to go riding a motorcyle near naked on a dusty, gravely where kids were playing :roll:

I repeat, he was stupid. Stupid to go out like that and stupid to come off.


I agree - I gave smeggy the the section of the RTA act when he was kind enough to sort out the internet troll on my behalf over a comment I made on this site concerning riding a bike or being discovered to drive a car in flip flops. I would prosecute if I could prove conclusively that the person was not in control of either bike or car.


This brand of footwear is beach footwear and it fails to support the heel and tendons. There is also the danger (and I can speak from experience of wearing these at the local gym's pool and on the beach) - that we tend to tense up the big toe to keep these shoes on our feet. Hence I think it can affect concentration - and if there is an accident - no proptection to the foot. Did you know that in a smash into a tree or by kinetic force of colliding with another car at any speed - your ankle bone can snap?

And your foot has thousands of little bones and a break of any one of them could cripple you?

I post this admittedly because it happens to be true and I hope it will make people step back and think "WHOA!" :shock:

Thus I try to warn people to wear a sensible cycling shoe when riding bicycle, sensible footwearr on motorbike and sensible footwear when driving.


Wildy and my own wife Alice could mention a article which appeared in "Good Housekeeping" over the shortcomng of the "must have" shoes for the season. The article described the shortcomings of all types of fashion shoe - including the flip flop and suggested that ladies (and I should imagine gents :wink: ) should alternate their style of footwear to keep feet healthy :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 18:40 
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Gizmo wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Freedom doesn't actually mean just doing what the hell we like when we like


Well actually yes it does.


Sorry, but no it doesn't, I cannot legally build and detonate an atomic bomb in my back yard. Actually I couldn't do it illegally either, and I accept its a rather extreme example, but it illustrates my point. :lol:

Gizmo wrote:
The law should be there to protect the innocent, not take away freedom.


It also serves to protect us from ourselves from time to time.

Gizmo wrote:
In any case riding in tee shirt and shorts is not illegal.......yet :P

The day I HAVE to dress up like Robocop to get on my bike is the day I hang up my keys.... :lol:


No its isn't illegal, and I'd back your right to express and enact that sentiment to the hilt.

I also reserve the right to think you are plain daft (as I still do the guy I helped scrape off the road outside my home) though :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 19:09 
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Gizmo wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
I repeat, he was stupid. Stupid to go out like that and stupid to come off.


Yep...Anal :x

So we have to get off and walk our bikes when we are near kids or on gravel. Or do we have to dress like mad max just in case somebody else does something stupid.

The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by some body else, as this looks like it was. So why are we stupid.

You said he was stupid to fall off....was that realy the case.. :roll:

Why do we have to compensate for bad roads, stupid motorists, stupid pedestrians, poor road signs, diesel spills and a hundred other man made preventable hazards.




OK - motorbike clothes must posess four main qualities

1. Keep rider warm in winter/cool in summer

2. Keep rider dry (applies all seasons :wink: )

3. Conspicuous

4. Protect in case of mishap.

Each - like cyclists - have degrees of choice and it does depend on how you use the bike anyway :wink:

Short journeys? a light anorak or oversuit would be adequate.

Long journeys in winter? Like when I ride my bike - I have layers - top to keep out the wet, second to keep me warm and ventilated and a third to protect in case I come off the bike. (No one is exempt - GMP lost an officer on a routine training excercise on Wednesday morning. :cry: An accident can occur no matter how skilled/advanced/COAST aware - thought the latter really really helps reduce the possibility :wink: )

Research has shown that 85% of motorbike accidents involve frontal/near frontal impacts and this means the biker is thrown off his bike.

OK - so conventional wisdom says I should "step off my bike (motorised or bicycle) and slide along the road as opposed to "rolling with the bike" How many think that when about to collide with something? :shock: :shock: Not many and that includes police officers.. :shock: Does not matter - if I jump ship and slide along the tarmac - I'd still be seriously injured .. without some sort of protection

The legal obligation to wear a helmet means my head is reasonably protected - remember these are better made than cycling helmets in general. I feel "lost"without either and as regards the cycling one.... my trendy racing one is a "light as a feather to wear and keeps insesct out of my hair." :wink:

But regardless of the cycling argument as regards the helmet .. all cyclists and bikers have the same sort of problem .. protection of hands, feet, arms.. legs. In the case of cyclists - sure we can pedal to deent speeds .. but facing facts .. a motorbike.. Honda.. Suzuki.. BMW... Ducati.. etc.. can all reach speeds well over the ton :yikes

If you land awkwardly.. at speeds of 30 mph and over... you are really vulnerable. (Have fallen once in training - fortunately on track before hitting the main roads .. but even so .. it :censored : hurt ....

So .. regardless of weather .. gloves, correct footwear (boots for motor bikers and cycling shoes for cyclists) and a tough jacket for bikers and tough but light jacket for cyclists would be a minum requirement. Remember the sheer breeze caused by travelling does cool as well.

Buy the best and most durable you can afford - and I direct this advice to cyclists as well :wink: Read the mags for best buys... all these mags feature the budget buys and I can commend their tips.


I wear Barbour waxed cotton products on my motorbike and my police motorbike in the summer and sometime lightweight leathers. :wink: (Have use of all vehicles in the fleet and we have very powerful "toys" here 8-) :wink: These are quite cool and I do not feel "overheated" in thme either.


Heavier duty versions in layers in the winter. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 19:20 
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Gizmo wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Freedom doesn't actually mean just doing what the hell we like when we like


Well actualy yes it does. But it looks like there are some who have forgotten that.. :wink:

The law should be there to protect the innocent, not take away freedom.


We have freedom so long as we do no cause harm to others or ourselves.

Quote:
In any case riding in tee shirt and shorts is not illegal.......yet :P

The day I HAVE to dress up like Robocop to get on my bike is the day I hang up my keys.... :lol:


Not illegal but not quite safe, my friend. As said in above post - shop around for gear which is cool, casual, stylish, affordable and yet offering you much more protection than T shirt and shorts.

I can appreciate that you do not want to wear leathers in temperatures of 30 degrees and higher. - but there are some alternatives which offer better protection that t shirt and shorts in this weather. Admittedly not "body armour" but just offering a bit less vulnerability .

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Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 21:58 
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Gizmo.

I take it you've never suffered gravel burn? Fortunately I've not yet had a major spill on powered two wheels, but I did have a rather nasty off riding my mountain bike that ended up with me sliding arm first along a chalk path. I lost most of the skin on the back of my upper right arm and I can tell you it HURT. It took about 2 weeks for my body to expel all the bits of grit from the skin and stop oozing, and about a further 3 - 4 weeks for it to heal properly. This only happened at about 10mph and I was wearing a short sleeved t-shirt. It is possible to lose limbs or even die from infection as a result of severe gravel burn.

I'm not an advocate of body armour on bikes by any means, but I always wear something that can take a bit of punishment. At the very least I wear denim, but most of the time full leather. You get the right gear and even in this heat, once you're moving you don't notice it. I wear gloves with reinforced knuckles (OK so I SUPPOSE you could class this as body armour :roll: ) because I've met too many people who have lost the use of hands after crashing and litterally grinding the tendons out of the back of them, and I always wear sturdy boots - its far too easy to go over on an ankle if you get it wrong when you put a foot down, and you don't want to suffer a kickback through an unsupported ankle 8-) . As for a lid, I wear an open face, but that's my choice and I understand the consequences. Personally I believe that the benifit in increased visibility outweighs the risk of severe facial injury - I'd rather be able to see to prevent the accident in the first place.

I understand what you're saying about choice and I don't believe in mandetory personal safety equipment, but I do believe that you should take responsibility for your own safety. Exposing yourself to unnecessary risk by not wearing suitable and adequate clothing for the activity you're undertaking is just plain daft. IMO riding topless in shorts is the same as trying to scale Everest in a sheepskin coat and an extra pair of socks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 02:47 
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RigPig wrote:
Why do I have to pay for other peoples' stupidity when they wind up in hospital after getting stuck on a mountainside, rescued from hurling seas, pulled out of their smoking wreck pissed as a fart...
That sounds familier, Peak District in the middle of winter flying in bloody awful weather to pick up two idiots who went out despite all the warnings not to, brought back two body bags.

RigPig wrote:
...we belong to a society and (should) have a sense of personal repsonsibility - we don't exist in a vacuum unfortunately.
BUT, we have to strike a balance between nannying and just being plain daft
I'll second that !!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 18:09 
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during the summer, my work wear is:
a T-shirt;
A pair of shorts;
last years running shoes.

I always roar to work at near light speed on the C90, some days with wind assistance I might hit 45mph on the half mile jaunt to work.

Having parted company with many a BMX in my time I always wear my gloves and an armoured jacket. Though I can't go very fast, it's fast enough to get some pretty nasty gravel rash.

In the winter I've got that many layers on anyway I'm sure if I was dragged all the way home my jeans would still be intact.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:55 
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Gizmo wrote:
... Or do we have to dress like mad max just in case somebody else does something stupid.
Unfortunately, yes.

Gizmo wrote:
The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by some body else, as this looks like it was.
How true. Another reason, why unfortunately, we have to take steps to protect ourselves from these idiot car drivers.

Gizmo wrote:
Why do we have to compensate for bad roads, stupid motorists, stupid pedestrians, poor road signs, diesel spills and a hundred other man made preventable hazards.
Because there are other "safety" priorities out there? Like cashcams? Cashcams REDUCE accidents, don't they? They help prevent Wayne in his Nova pulling out at a junction on you? They help prevent drivers pulling across you, 'cos they can't be arsed to look over their shoulders when lange-changing (without indicating, naturally).Oh no, they don't, so that's why, unfortunately, we have to take these steps to protect ourselves, 'cos no traffic police will anymore... :x

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:59 
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How exactly will traffic police stop someone pulling out in front of you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 13:31 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
How exactly will traffic police stop someone pulling out in front of you?
I was alluding to, that hopefully trafpol presence would reduce lunatic acts of driving...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 16:57 
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BottyBurp wrote:
mpaton2004 wrote:
How exactly will traffic police stop someone pulling out in front of you?
I was alluding to, that hopefully trafpol presence would reduce lunatic acts of driving...


You'd have to have a trafpol patrolling every road to make an effect. There's no doubt we need more out there, but like speed camera, they aren't the 'hammer to a clock' answer. The bigger part of the answer is to get a shift in driving behaviour and for people to take responsibility for their own safety.

I fly aircraft for part of my living, and you will find virtually no pilot behaving irrationally or breaking any rules because they think it "safe" or "appropriate"

Why? We have the lives of 200+ people and many thousands on the ground to worry about. Think about that analogy applied to road safety. Adherance to laws coupled with sensible behaviour delivers safety. Would it be appropriate for me to descend at 9000ft/min @ 300 KIAS just because it's clear air!?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 17:00 
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mpaton - interesting post, but would you not agree that levels of training and competence are higher and the rules that ARE in place are more sensible and set by people who actually know what they're talking about?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 17:06 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Would it be appropriate for me to descend at 9000ft/min @ 300 KIAS just because it's clear air!?
Not if it's safe or appropriate to do so...

Equally, I don't perform unsafe or inappropriate manouvres on the road.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 17:07 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
mpaton - interesting post, but would you not agree that levels of training and competence are higher and the rules that ARE in place are more sensible and set by people who actually know what they're talking about?
:clap:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 17:56 
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:roll: I think it would be a gross mistake to refer to every traffic engineer as incompetent. In aviation, bending or ignoring the rules can (and often is) fatal. The same applies to road use.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 01:03 
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Getting back on topic.....

I wear a knox richochet back protector, and my 2 piece leathers have CE armour in all the right places.

Good quality Alpinestars boots and high end belstaff gloves complete the ensemble

I have got so used to wearing it all now, I feel nekked without it!

The race suit doesn't have CE approved armour although it is armoured. On the flip side it seems to offer less restriction to movement on the bike. I still wear the back protector though!

Its down to personal choice really though, if someone wants to go for a ride in jeans & t-shirt thats up to them. As long as they are comfortable with the risk, thats fine with me. Its called freedom, and although the goverment are busy eroding this, it still stands :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 09:53 
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blademansw wrote:
Its down to personal choice really though, if someone wants to go for a ride in jeans & t-shirt thats up to them. As long as they are comfortable with the risk, thats fine with me.


You be careful. Saying things like that on this forum and you fill get flamed... :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:19 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
:roll: I think it would be a gross mistake to refer to every traffic engineer as incompetent. In aviation, bending or ignoring the rules can (and often is) fatal. The same applies to road use.
I judge people by the quality of their actions. Smoothe take-off, uneventful flight, smoothe landing and I'll guess the pilot is OK.

Stupid road layouts, deliberately inconveniencing motorists, ridiculous speed limits etc., traffic 'engineer' probably incompetent.

Like Sixy said, I'd like to think that aviation rules are set by people who know what they're doing, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, they're for safety's sake, not just more dumbing down of motorists.

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