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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 17:57 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPhZRp8ScOY
Looks to me like the driver pulls over to prevent a ridiculous overtake - but should drivers be policing the driving of others like this, or should they allow natural selection to take over? :twisted:

The car driver clearly has no view of any potential obstruction in front of the truck.
It's wet, narrow and there are turnings and entrances - what on earth was he thinking of? :shock:
Yet he clearly thinks he has done nothing wrong!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 18:25 
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No.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 19:35 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
No.


In principle I strongly agree with you; although in the example shown I think it was for the best that the lorry driver 'accidentally' drifted over a little more :wink: onto the other lane. Had he not done so I think the car driver would have attempted an unwise overtake.

Best wishes all,
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:40 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
No.

:yesyes:

Wildly inappropriate attempt at an overtake aside; from the view of the following car driver, there is nothing to suggests the truck driver didn't have a valid reason to pull out, such as passing a cyclist, or avoiding a vehicle pulling out too far from a junction. The video gives no clue as to what could have been in the car driver's blind area - the viewer of the video cannot see the cyclist or pulled out vehicle had they actually been there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:54 
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If faced with another road user making any action which might impact on my safety, or others, then I would feel bound to intervene if it was safe to do so.
Otherwise, I would take any action necessary to warn of danger, or protect others.
I once drove very slowly around a very busy multi lane roundabout to protect a cyclist in front who had ventured onto the roundabout on the marked lanes rather than go around the outside, or get off and walk.
I have also blocked entrances of busy junctions when an emergency vehicle has been approaching from behind on blues and twos, and in the case illustrated I find myself in agreement with the action of the truck driver, if not his timing.

The car driver has no idea of the nearside of the road ahead which might have forced the truck out at any minute - he was FAR TOO CLOSE to be able to properly gauge the view ahead.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 15:13 
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The trouble with preventing an overtake that you think is unsafe is you will make the overtake more dangerous but may not render it impossible, so you may just end up increasing the risk for yourself and other road users.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 15:59 
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Did the trucker indicate the fact that he was pulling out? If not then he is as dangerous as the person trying to overtake. I can't watch the video again because I have to be over 18 ( and my memory is so bad that I can't remember if I am or not).... ;-)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 16:22 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
The trouble with preventing an overtake that you think is unsafe is you will make the overtake more dangerous but may not render it impossible, so you may just end up increasing the risk for yourself and other road users.

I think in this case it made the overtake impossible - but as I observed, it was a little late.

It MIGHT of course have been nothing to do with the attempt to overtake.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 20:19 
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graball wrote:
Did the trucker indicate the fact that he was pulling out? If not then he is as dangerous as the person trying to overtake.

Would you indicate when performing an evasive manoeuvre - such as avoiding a vehicle pulling out too far from a junction? (I'm not saying this is what occurred, but I don't believe anyone here can dispute the possibility of it)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 22:27 
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yes, that is the purpose of indicators, to alert drivers behind of a change of direction.That is why you should always indicate when overtaking parked cars or cyclists, so that any vehicle behind, who has not seen what you are overtaking (which is the case if the lead vehicle is a large van or HGV) does not get caught unawares.
This is one reason why I do not agree with IAM policy, of not making reactionary indications...they can be life savers.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 23:10 
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graball wrote:
yes, that is the purpose of indicators, to alert drivers behind of a change of direction.That is why you should always indicate when overtaking parked cars or cyclists, so that any vehicle behind, who has not seen what you are overtaking (which is the case if the lead vehicle is a large van or HGV) does not get caught unawares.

Graball, I think you missed my point - unless you can really say that you always indicate when performing unexpected evasive manoeuvres?

My last post (to you) was regarding the specific situation of 'avoiding a vehicle pulling out too far from a junction', as opposed to knowingly overtaking other traffic.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 23:16 
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yes, I instinctively indicate as I turn the wheel in that type of situation, it takes milliseconds once your brain is used to doing it, which is why I always indicate whether there are other vehicles around or not.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 23:42 
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There can be times when indicating might stop another to execute a manoeuvre, that you can see would place them in danger if they continue, with their actions, and it is something that I have done but very rare.
I would at the next safest moment allow that person to overtake (if that was there intention), to help show that I was not being preventative at all - of course. This helps prevent stress and frustration all round.
Often the reason can be clear to the other party at the time, but not always, so you can need an additional follow action to help them achieve their aim (like and overtake).

I agree that the lorry driver's actions may have stemmed from a genuine need to pull out, or from preventing a potentially dangerous overtake, from the little that we can see of this small snippet.
The car's intentions to overtake are clear, but most unwise on such a narrow and low visibility road.
I agree with Steve a car coming out from any junction could pose a great danger. Plus if anything caused the lorry to pull out if he were to execute the overtake then they would clash on such a narrow road.
Even if the driver has become exceptionally frustrated with the lorry it is no reason to act recklessly. The junction up on the right is a great danger if he had tried to overtake as anything exiting has very limited visual lines and so would need to pull out to see and that would narrow the road too.
I would like to think that at the next available straight and wider section the lorry allows this car to pass him/her and let them be on their way to help alleviate the frustration clearly shown.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 23:45 
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graball wrote:
yes, I instinctively indicate as I turn the wheel in that type of situation....

Really? If you can hand-on-heart claim this, then you are better than me.

Personally, when I'm concentrating on evading (thankfully a rare occurrence), making sure I've indicated is way down on my priority list. Indicators are used to indicate intentions; they're quite pointless when the evasive manoeuvre has evidently already been initiated. In our case with the trucker evading in the supposed scenario: the use of indicators wouldn't have made any real difference, the car driver can see the truck is moving over.
For that reason, I simply cannot share your sentiments of automatically laying equal blame with the truck driver simply because he didn't indicate.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say: I'm glad you don't police my driving :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 23:47 
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graball wrote:
yes, I instinctively indicate as I turn the wheel in that type of situation, it takes milliseconds once your brain is used to doing it, which is why I always indicate whether there are other vehicles around or not.
I don't think that there was a need here to indicate as in doing so you can send false signals to others. I agree that the lorry driver appears to be 'obstructing' but for possibly good reason/s, we cannot be sure but any overtake here is foolhardy for sure.
In a car a simple hand gesture can help show that you acknowledge the other person's presence and that you will help in a moment - perhaps for another thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 00:17 
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Steve wrote:
In our case with the trucker evading in the supposed scenario: the use of indicators wouldn't have made any real difference, the car driver can see the truck is moving over.

The only way that an indicator might have helped is with the car driver's frustration e.g. trucker indicates right briefly, car driver hangs back assuming the overtake is pointless as lorry is about to go anyway and so no longer a 'problem'. Car stops trying to overtake for a few minutes, long enough for the trucker to locate a wider section of the road where he can pull over to allow the car to overtake in a good safe environment.
However were the trucker to leave the indicator on (accidentally) or take too long to find a good overtaking environment then the car might be confused and possibly frustration levels heightened due to the pretend or intentional 'delay overtaking tactic'.
It must be done with great care and good understanding. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 00:35 
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Early on in the clip, the lorry takes a line in the centre of the road - pulling back in when traffic comes the other way.
The final manouvre is further out than the early ones - and is very last minute - a reaction to seeing the car in his mirrors as the car nips out from (close) behind the truck.

Based on the earlier positioning, the car driver SHOULD have anticipated the possibility of the truck moving out!

I am not sure that I could say I would ALWAYS indicate - but I would hope that I would always TRY to be quick enough. Depends on the controls in each individual vehicle.
I have driven vehicles where if you "flicked" the stalk, it would bounce back into the off position, while my 307 is happy to be flicked into either direction and stay put.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 07:49 
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Quote:
graball wrote:yes, I instinctively indicate as I turn the wheel in that type of situation....


Really? If you can hand-on-heart claim this, then you are better than me.


It's something that comes from a lot of driving experience, Steve, it takes no thought at all to extend a finger to flick the indicator stalk if your hand positioning is correct.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 07:55 
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Quote:
For that reason, I simply cannot share your sentiments of automatically laying equal blame with the truck driver simply because he didn't indicate.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say: I'm glad you don't police my driving :)


To me , good driving is all about helping other road users to understand your intentions, if you intend to pull out into the middle of the road to overtake a pedestrian or cyclist, pull over to the left or simply turn off, it is far more "driver friendly" and safe, to indicate your intentions, especially when driving a large vehicle that no one can really see round or through.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 08:33 
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Quote:
I don't think that there was a need here to indicate as in doing so you can send false signals to others.


I can't see what you are trying to say here, Claire, if you are pulling out into the centre of the road to the extent that another car, either coming towards you or following you, cannot get past, don't you think it is right to indicate this "potentially dangerous" manouvere?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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