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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 08:36 
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when I'm concentrating on evading (thankfully a rare occurrence)


Would you actually be "concentrating" on an evasive manouvere though..to me, "concentrating" suggests that you should have time to also perform simple tasks like indicating.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 09:14 
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Hazards rather than RH indicator maybe?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 17:08 
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I'm sure I'm not alone when I say: I'm glad you don't police my driving :)




I wouldn't attempt to police anyone's driving to the extent of stopping them attempting a manouvere(unless definately dangerous to the point of certainly a collision) but may try and assist them to make judgement of if the manouvere such as an overtake, is possible or not, e.g. if a car was following me for some time and obviously trying to overtake , I would indicate left on a straight clear section of road and slow slightly (some drivers behind, can't see as much of the road ahead as you can in a large vehicle), also if there was approaching traffic which I had seen but felt that he hadn't, I might indicate right to put them off overtaking BUT NEVER pull across the path of another vehicle unless the danger was paramount.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 23:01 
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graball wrote:
:yes, I instinctively indicate as I turn the wheel in that type of situation....

...

It's something that comes from a lot of driving experience, Steve, it takes no thought at all to extend a finger to flick the indicator stalk if your hand positioning is correct.

Which means there is a slight delay to get your fingers in place before you can initiate the evasive manoeuvre - unless you always grip the wheel in an unusual manner in anticipation of such a need?

Is a delay, or holding the wheel with fingers aloft when performing emergency evasive steering (reduced grip/control), a good thing ? :no:
It seems to me there is a real risk of aggravating the circumstances when ensuring use of indicators.

The IAM's (apparent) position on this now makes perfect sense to me.

graball wrote:
To me , good driving is all about helping other road users to understand your intentions, if you intend to pull out into the middle of the road to overtake a pedestrian or cyclist, pull over to the left or simply turn off, it is far more "driver friendly" and safe, to indicate your intentions, especially when driving a large vehicle that no one can really see round or through.

I say again: we are talking about evading, not overtaking. Are you trying to evade? :wink:

Of course one should indicate to signal intentions to other road users.
However, when evading there is only reaction (be it a conditioned one); there is rarely ever any intention.....

graball wrote:
Would you actually be "concentrating" on an evasive manouvere though..to me, "concentrating" suggests that you should have time to also perform simple tasks like indicating.

It would be nice to be able to - if there were time to do so.
The point about the supposed scenario is that there is no time (every fraction of a second could count) and that doing so is way down on the priority list (compared to assessing risks of escape routes and taking them). Also, doing so in that supposed scenario is pointless as it is indicating a manoeuvre that is already happening, as opposed to going to happen (there is no intention - no possibility of a warning)

Given there can be no advanced warning, what good comes from visibly indicating in sympathy with an act, when the said act is immediately visible anyway?

Isn't it rather like placing a label on the business end of a baseball bat stating "Duck if you see this being swung towards you" - well duh! :lol:

Of course, moving to the wrong side of a road without indicating may well be a bit iffy (we are not talking about indicating intention to be in the wrong side of the road), but surely this pales in comparison to forcing people to evade into oncoming lanes to avoid a collision?

Sorry but all considered, your given reasoning (thus far) doesn't convince me of the validity of your opinion, again lending support to the answers given to the underlying question posed by this thread.




As an aside: If you believe so strongly that not indicating in such a scenario is so dangerous, then perhaps you would campaign (or at least start a new thread discussing it) for indicators that behave much like modern hazard lights during emergency braking: automatically indicating the direction when quickly applying hard steering at speed - without compromising reaction time or hand-control of the steering wheel.

Cat ... Pigeons :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 07:58 
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Steve wrote:
As an aside: If you believe so strongly that not indicating in such a scenario is so dangerous, then perhaps you would campaign (or at least start a new thread discussing it) for indicators that behave much like modern hazard lights during emergency braking: automatically indicating the direction when quickly applying hard steering at speed - without compromising reaction time or hand-control of the steering wheel.
Cat ... Pigeons :)


To comply with Mirror - Signal - Manoeuvre such a system would have to be based on the head movement as you look at the mirror rather than on the movement of the steering wheel. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 22:59 
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Steve, if you were driving using COAST, you would be partially anticipating the posiblity of a driver pulling out from a junction in front of you, so covering the possibility of having to make an avoidence manouvere and the other technicalities that accompany it.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 23:13 
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graball wrote:
Steve, if you were driving using COAST, you would be partially anticipating the posiblity of a driver pulling out from a junction in front of you, so covering the possibility of having to make an avoidence manouvere and the other technicalities that accompany it.




BUT - if following the vehicle in the video - would any sane person be that close to the rear end of the truck -personally ,I'd be looking at forgetting any overtake manoeuvre for a few miles ,and concentrate on keeping a safe distance behind the truck - my safety is more important than getting past some truck.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 00:13 
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graball wrote:
Steve, if you were driving using COAST, you would be partially anticipating the posiblity of a driver pulling out from a junction in front of you, so covering the possibility of having to make an avoidence manouvere and the other technicalities that accompany it.

I think that's not reasonable (conditionally).

If the joining road is visible for quite a length (from the main road) then what you say could be applied, but the video shows that any possible junction would not have been visible for any useful depth. So a driver would have to either: slow to walking pace, or make a judgement knowing they will have to perform an evasive manoeuvre if a vehicle suddenly appeared at the mouth of the junction and overshot it.

Now, would you drive at walking pace along that road, or do what the majority of drivers do?

edited to add: I think I might have read too much into your post, hence I've removed my original response to this



Does the IAM's (apparent) position (not indicating when evading) make somewhat more sense to you?
What are your thoughts regarding the 'auto-indicator' idea?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 07:32 
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Does the IAM's (apparent) position (not indicating when evading) make somewhat more sense to you?
What are your thoughts regarding the 'auto-indicator' idea?
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign




I'm not familiar with the IAM's position on indicating(or not) on evasion, I do not agree with their stance, on not indicating if there is no vehicle following you. I am TOTALLY against automation of any driver input, whether it be indicating, mirror dipping, headlight dipping or car control, i.e ESP, ABS, prefering drivers learning car control and road etiquette the "proper" way.

Botach,

I can't see what you are trying to get at by asking about my road position if following the lorry in question, I thought we were discussing whether or not to indicate, when pulling out into the middle of the road, when a car starts to pull out of a junction in front of you and causes you to veer into the opposite carriage way and whether it is courtesy to indicate this manouvere to following or approaching traffic, so I can't see what it has to do with how close the car was following the lorry in this clip...totally different discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 16:43 
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graball wrote:
I'm not familiar with the IAM's position on indicating(or not) on evasion,

My apologies if I have misunderstood the context of "... of not making reactionary indications..." within one of your earlier posts.
To be fair to myself: you were responding to my point about evading (which you've just confirmed with your response to Botach: "...when a car starts to pull out of a junction in front of you and causes you to veer into the opposite carriage way") - which I assumed was 'reactionary'.

Going back to an earlier point: how are you able to get your fingers in place to 'auto-indicate' by hand without gripping the wheel in a manner that doesn't reduce your grip/control of the steering wheel and without delaying your evasive manoeuvre?

Given that doing so cannot act as a warning (no intention signalled) and one can see the vehicle moving anyway, what is the actual benefit from doing so, or the danger caused from not doing so?

graball wrote:
I am TOTALLY against automation of any driver input, whether it be indicating, mirror dipping, headlight dipping or car control, i.e ESP, ABS, prefering drivers learning car control and road etiquette the "proper" way.

To confirm consistency here: do I rightly presume that you are totally against the hazard lights automatically coming on when a vehicle brakes hard when at speed and that is something you would manually activate - or that you wouldn't have the hazards activate at all in that event?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 18:09 
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Going back to an earlier point: how are you able to get your fingers in place to 'auto-indicate' by hand without gripping the wheel in a manner that doesn't reduce your grip/control of the steering wheel and without delaying your evasive manoeuvre?


I don't really think the average driver, in the average modern car needs to grip the steering wheel very tightly, I thought that was just something that learners or nervous lady drivers did, to be honest. I would have thought that most people, could manage to make an emergency, "veer" or "swerve" with just a single hand on the wheel and as for indicating whilst steering, I can't see this reducing any-ones grip enough to cause any problems.

My term "reactionary indications" is meant to describe a movement without consideration of whether there is following traffic to observe the indication, or not, as opposed to their stance that you shouldn't indicate if no one is following you(or so I believe from posts I have read).
I'm of the belief that hazard lights should warn of a stationary hazard and if someone needs to brake hard to a standstill for a pile up then hazards should be employed but I can't see the point of employing them for hard braking alone.

Getting back to the original line of this post.( we seem to be drifting off the original topic slightly)

From what I remember of the video, the driver was assumed to have swerved out into the middle of the road, to maybe stop the folowing car from overtaking, at a point where the lorry driver thought it was unsafe to do so.
If this is the case, the the lorry driver must have had time to observe, in his mirror, the car behind , in a position which appeared to the lorry driver, that the car driver was thinking of overtaking and also the lorry driver must have had time to observe the road infront of his lorry and mentally decide that he was going to perform the "mid road block". During all this thought process, do you not believe that he had time to flick his right indicator to warn the car driver behind?

I sure as anything do so.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 14:22 
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graball wrote:
Steve wrote:
Going back to an earlier point: how are you able to get your fingers in place to 'auto-indicate' by hand without gripping the wheel in a manner that doesn't reduce your grip/control of the steering wheel and without delaying your evasive manoeuvre?

I don't really think the average driver, in the average modern car needs to grip the steering wheel very tightly,

None of your response answered my question; it remains (among others)!

I'm not talking about gripping tightly; I'm talking about purposely having some of the fingers away from the steering wheel, especially during a 'panic' manoeuvre, so risking a reduction of the level of control. Anyway, the next quote response below doesn't really address this.

graball wrote:
I would have thought that most people, could manage to make an emergency, "veer" or "swerve" with just a single hand on the wheel

OK, I think we've drilled down to one of the causes of our difference of opinion.
Is 'could manage' good enough when speed, accuracy and precision is paramount?

I can only assume you don't always drive with one hand on the wheel (otherwise a new argument of 'letting go of the steering wheel' will be created), so its a bit of a moot point!

So do you always drive with two fingers off the wheel?

Given that indicating in this scenario cannot act as a warning (no intention signalled) and one can see the vehicle moving anyway, what is the actual benefit from doing so, or the danger caused from not doing so?



graball wrote:
I'm of the belief that hazard lights should warn of a stationary hazard and if someone needs to brake hard to a standstill for a pile up then hazards should be employed but I can't see the point of employing them for hard braking alone.

Why not? (I think there could be an inconsistency here).

So returning to the question: do I rightly presume that you are totally against the hazard lights automatically coming on?

graball wrote:
From what I remember of the video, the driver was assumed to have swerved out into the middle of the road, to maybe stop the folowing car from overtaking, at a point where the lorry driver thought it was unsafe to do so.
If this is the case,...

... and if it wasn't (thus making the rest of your paragraph redundant), and he really was reacting to someone edging too far from a junction (which is the point I'm drilling down to), then ... ?


graball wrote:
Getting back to the original line of this post.( we seem to be drifting off the original topic slightly)

No, this demonstrates the overall point beautifully. Regardless of who is right or wrong, we are clearly not in agreement with what we deduce from the video. Guidelines for harmonisation is needed, as is properly captured evidence, and that's partly the point about the the police service and road safety policy - and why individuals probably shouldn't try to impose their will on others.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 15:24 
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Crikey, Steve, I'm suprised that you've come back to this one. However I will try and put my position clear on this for you and try and answer your more sensible questions.

Quote:
I'm not talking about gripping tightly; I'm talking about purposely having some of the fingers away from the steering wheel, especially during a 'panic' manoeuvre, so risking a reduction of the level of control. Anyway, the next quote response below doesn't really address this.


I wouldn't consider this to be a problem, I tend not to have many, if any "panic" siuations that I could recall if it was the case or not, I tend to anticipate if someone might pull out in front of me or not and be ready to brake/slow/indicate/steer if the case arises but in the odd case where say a cat/dog/ fox has run out in front of me on an otherwise deserted country road( usually from a gap in afence/hedge etc) and I had to swerve then i wouldn't have indicated.
Everyones different though, some people don't like taking their hands off the wheel for a moment but then they tend to drive automatics.

I would not however consider having a finger ready to indicate as a loss of control. I remember when many cars had horns on stalks opposite the indicator and much prefered them, I found that "emergency" warnings on the horn far easier to do than the more modern cars, whereby you have to take your hand off wheel to push the centre of the steering wheel...but as I said everyone's different.Did you ever have a car with a horn stalk,Steve, and if so did you find it a problem?

Quote:
graball wrote:I would have thought that most people, could manage to make an emergency, "veer" or "swerve" with just a single hand on the wheel


OK, I think we've drilled down to one of the causes of our difference of opinion.
Is 'could manage' good enough when speed, accuracy and precision is paramount?


To cut this one short.... the answer is , yes!

Quote:
(a) I can only assume you don't always drive with one hand on the wheel (otherwise a new argument of 'letting go of the steering wheel' will be created), so its a bit of a moot point!

(b) So do you always drive with two fingers off the wheel?

(c) Given that indicating in this scenario cannot act as a warning (no intention signalled) and one can see the vehicle moving anyway, what is the actual benefit from doing so, or the danger caused from not doing so?


Answer (a), No, but I do prefer manual gearboxes and sometimes adjust the radio volume
(b).... No
(c) Perhaps you have never driven a large vehicle but it is often impossible for closely following vehicles to see the road in front of you. If I was in the situation whereby a car, child, cyclist or whatever was to suddenly "jump" out in front of me from junction or otherwise, I would like to think that, as well as me "swerving" to avoid it/them, that I could prevent anyone immediately behind me from suddenly encountering said object also by suprise.


Quote:
graball wrote:I'm of the belief that hazard lights should warn of a stationary hazard and if someone needs to brake hard to a standstill for a pile up then hazards should be employed but I can't see the point of employing them for hard braking alone.


Why not? (I think there could be an inconsistency here).

So returning to the question: do I rightly presume that you are totally against the hazard lights automatically coming on?


I don't do a lot of motorway driving so haven't really found that many occassions where someone needs to stop and put hazards on. I suppose braking to a total standstill, they wouldn't be a problem but just hard breaking alone, I really can't see any benefit of them if the car was then to pull away immediately or not totally stop.

Quote:
Guidelines for harmonisation is needed, as is properly captured evidence, and that's partly the point about the the police service and road safety policy - and why individuals probably shouldn't try to impose their will on others.


i stated from the start, that I am NOT in favour of people policing other peoples driving in situations like this where it can lead to more serious consequences, I do however try and warn/ tell other drivers if I see them driving in darkness or extremly bad conditions without lights..

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 18:31 
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Steve wrote:
....do you always drive with two fingers off the wheel?


No, not always, but it can happen when I'm tempted to give a certain type of signal to another road user.... :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 22:54 
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TripleS wrote:
Steve wrote:
....do you always drive with two fingers off the wheel?


No, not always, but it can happen when I'm tempted to give a certain type of signal to another road user.... :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Now ,Dave - I carry a wooden mallet on the rear ( in case I have to change a rear - on mine -wheels tend to be tight to get off ), but of late ,I've been tempted to carry same in front - so that after getting in middle of space between two parked cars, I can wallop the female (and it's always a woman driver) that decides that the space is wider than it is - possibly something to do with hubby . :wink: :wink: .She wouldn't see two fingers as a threat - more like an invitation :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 23:48 
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graball wrote:
...and try and answer your more sensible questions.

You seemed to have addressed everything - except for the most pertinent question of all:

graball wrote:
From what I remember of the video, the driver was assumed to have swerved out into the middle of the road, to maybe stop the folowing car from overtaking, at a point where the lorry driver thought it was unsafe to do so.
If this is the case,...

... and if it wasn't (thus making the rest of your paragraph redundant), and he really was reacting to someone edging too far from a junction (which is the point I'm drilling down to), then ... ?


graball wrote:
Steve wrote:
I'm not talking about gripping tightly; I'm talking about purposely having some of the fingers away from the steering wheel, especially during a 'panic' manoeuvre, so risking a reduction of the level of control. Anyway, the next quote response below doesn't really address this.


I wouldn't consider this to be a problem, I tend not to have many, if any "panic" siuations that I could recall if it was the case or not, I tend to anticipate if someone might pull out in front of me or not and be ready to brake/slow/indicate/steer if the case arises but in the odd case where say a cat/dog/ fox has run out in front of me on an otherwise deserted country road( usually from a gap in afence/hedge etc) and I had to swerve then i wouldn't have indicated.
Everyones different though, some people don't like taking their hands off the wheel for a moment but then they tend to drive automatics.

I would not however consider having a finger ready to indicate as a loss of control. I remember when many cars had horns on stalks opposite the indicator and much prefered them, I found that "emergency" warnings on the horn far easier to do than the more modern cars, whereby you have to take your hand off wheel to push the centre of the steering wheel...but as I said everyone's different.Did you ever have a car with a horn stalk,Steve, and if so did you find it a problem?

How do you anticipate things from a junction you cannot see or know about?
No I never had the pleasure of a horn stalk.

Also, I never debated that 'having a finger ready to indicate [is] a loss of control'; I actually asked about a possible reduction of grip or control.

graball wrote:
Steve wrote:
Is 'could manage' good enough when speed, accuracy and precision is paramount?

To cut this one short.... the answer is , yes!

Well I will have to strongly disagree due to the simple effect of the G-forces involved. With one hand on the wheel, when applying steering at speed, as the hand reaches the top or bottom of the steering arc, it will be influenced by the sideways g-force. The effect would give a feedback, either positive or negative (depending on what hand steered where), and doesn't lend itself to the precision control needed for evasion at speed.

graball wrote:
Quote:
(c) Given that indicating in this scenario cannot act as a warning (no intention signalled) and one can see the vehicle moving anyway, what is the actual benefit from doing so, or the danger caused from not doing so?

(c) Perhaps you have never driven a large vehicle but it is often impossible for closely following vehicles to see the road in front of you. If I was in the situation whereby a car, child, cyclist or whatever was to suddenly "jump" out in front of me from junction or otherwise, I would like to think that, as well as me "swerving" to avoid it/them, that I could prevent anyone immediately behind me from suddenly encountering said object also by suprise.

Thanks.
So, what is your answer to the question?

graball wrote:
I'm of the belief that hazard lights should warn of a stationary hazard and if someone needs to brake hard to a standstill for a pile up then hazards should be employed but I can't see the point of employing them for hard braking alone.

...

I don't do a lot of motorway driving so haven't really found that many occassions where someone needs to stop and put hazards on. I suppose braking to a total standstill, they wouldn't be a problem but just hard breaking alone, I really can't see any benefit of them if the car was then to pull away immediately or not totally stop.

By that same token, I could so easily apply the argument and say I can't see the point for indicating for steering...
There's that inconsistency I alluded to earlier. At least steering is obvious; with brakes you're never sure how hard another is braking.


I think we have a difference in ideology, specifically that I think your stance is necessarily uncompromising and intolerant. This opinion is my own only, and you may well think the opposite extreme of me. I think all we can do is agree to disagree.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 02:48 
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graball wrote:
Quote:
I don't think that there was a need here to indicate as in doing so you can send false signals to others.
I can't see what you are trying to say here, Claire, if you are pulling out into the centre of the road to the extent that another car, either coming towards you or following you, cannot get past, don't you think it is right to indicate this "potentially dangerous" manouvere?

We always have to consider that although we may think that our action is clear to others, this may not always be the case.
For example the car behind the truck might have been pulling out to simply obtain a better view of the road, or see where his turn of might be, or if there is a long straight ahead for a potential overtake, or verifying with his Sat Nav of an action he needs to make soon.
The lorry driver might have pulled out for a host of reasons, it might have been because of the car behind or reacting to something in front of him, like an incident on his left, or for something further up the road, if the danger/potential hazard was resolved he then simply pulls back in.
Indicating to others is helpful, useful and often necessary. Primarily it shows our own intent, but it can also be used to help prevent an action from someone else's developing mistake, it can be used for encouragement for another to act (encouragement to pull over to allow overtaking).
So 'just' indicating can be taken as a small variety of intentions.
If the lorry pulls out enough to prevent an oncoming car (that he can clearly see) from passing by him that would be a highly dangerous manoeuvre in itself and not one taken unless absolutely necessary. If he is swerving to avoid an unexpected, not anticipated danger he is highly likely to need both hands on the wheel to control his vehicle, than 'worry' about indicating. If no one is ahead of him (oncoming traffic) the perceived and immediate danger will be to him and the obstacle, so passing it is paramount, and indicating will not help him immediately, nor help others so moving is prime and indicating un-necessary. He will be past and safe, the following car has to take their own responsibility and is also more likely to fit past anything than the lorry could. His indicators are not likely to be as easily 'at his fingertips' too so doing prime immediate action is better than indicating for little real benefit.
As his pull-out did not prevent any oncoming vehicle, I can assume that he has not blocked nor prevented movement of any oncoming traffic. So why would he need to indicate unless to help dissuade any action that the person behind him might be considering. But can he be 'sure' what the car behind is actually thinking or doing ? No.
Sometimes an indication done deliberately to dissuade another's action might upset someone as they feel conned into not acting for 'nothing' (lorry doing a right turn then not).

The 'false signals' to others might be that;
there is a right turn ahead, lets say the car behind has noticed that right turn, so if the lorry indicates right, the following car may assume that the lorry is to turn off. The car pulling out from that side road might also think that the lorry is to turn right, and may plan to pull out in front of the lorry to help give him/her extra space to turn in (perhaps), along with any pedestrians who might consider crossing the road etc.
If the car indicates the lorry might think that he is turning right not saying that he wishes to overtake and is in a hurry ? It is ambiguous is it not?
What does the car (assuming that it is a car, not a small van etc) gain by indicating? Telling the lorry that it wishes to overtake - maybe but it is narrow enough to only pass on a straight and if the lorry stops.
Although we are taught to be wary of false indications because others maybe indicating for another reason or accidentally left it on, we must try to always ensure that no confusing messages are sent when we indicate.
This potentially 'dangerous manoeuvre' we cannot be sure that it is dangerous, as we cannot see much of the road up ahead, from this video. We only have a small amount of information. We know nothing about the vehicle this was filmed from, either although we can estimate the size of it compared to the lorry's dimensions.

To police another's driving is wrong for most people because it requires a complete understanding of the whole situation and appreciation of what another was doing or trying to do, and many cannot appreciate what other's are doing as we all have a different approach to driving and riding brought about by our own experiences, abilities and knowledge.
For example : motorists with greater ability might be doing something others have no comprehension of whatsoever, and then conclude a danger when non exist.
What can possibly be gained by everyone 'watching and reporting' everyone else ? Could it possibly help improve motoring standards - not in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 03:33 
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Steve wrote:
Going back to an earlier point: how are you able to get your fingers in place to 'auto-indicate' by hand without gripping the wheel in a manner that doesn't reduce your grip/control of the steering wheel and without delaying your evasive manoeuvre?
There is a way of holding the wheel esp with fingers at the edge and around the back of the wheel that will help one reach the indicators. If one holds the wheel with the 'ball' of the hand more towards the front of the wheel, the hand will need to move more to reach the indicators / horn etc.
So the way in which one holds the wheel will help or hinder 'stork' inputs to varying degrees.
I have had horns on storks, and they were OK but I slightly prefer centre horn as you always know where they are, but I have been fond of my horns at the edge of the centre support for the wheel as they do not remove one's hand off the wheel at all and are neigh always to hand (or the thumb!).
Steve wrote:
Given that doing so cannot act as a warning (no intention signalled) and one can see the vehicle moving anyway, what is the actual benefit from doing so, or the danger caused from not doing so?
Without trying to muddy these waters, many signals I see, in the real world happen as people move, than prior, but positioning and environment help to 'indicate' intentions too (of course).
I do see your point Steve about prior intention.
graball wrote:
I am TOTALLY against automation of any driver input, whether it be indicating, mirror dipping, headlight dipping or car control, i.e ESP, ABS, prefering drivers learning car control and road etiquette the "proper" way.
Certainly auto input can prevent motorists thought process as it becomes more and more automatic. I do like improvements to motoring ability and understanding and knowing more about vehicle control is good as it adds to our toolbox of controls. I am also a realist and recognise that many people just do not want to know and are happy to have, and even welcome all the technology they can have. I think some can be helpful but I want the on/off button ! :)

graball wrote:
I would have thought that most people, could manage to make an emergency, "veer" or "swerve" with just a single hand on the wheel
Having had a few modern new hire cars I have been surprised at the 'pull' from front wheel drive cars and could imagine that some people would not be able to swerve in an emergency if they only had one hand on the wheel.
I strongly like to know that for most of the drive two hands are on the wheel.
I found my arms were tired from just driving and although regularly driving a car might make it less of an issue, there are many who are driving hire cars that will experience this. I wonder what the stats say on hire car accidents and FWD to RWD / distance etc ?
graball wrote:
Steve wrote:
I'm not talking about gripping tightly; I'm talking about purposely having some of the fingers away from the steering wheel, especially during a 'panic' manoeuvre, so risking a reduction of the level of control. Anyway, the next quote response below doesn't really address this.
I wouldn't consider this to be a problem, I tend not to have many, if any "panic" situations .... but in the odd case where say a cat/dog/ fox has run out in front of me on an otherwise deserted country road ...and I had to swerve then i wouldn't have indicated.
Everyones different though, some people don't like taking their hands off the wheel for a moment but then they tend to drive automatics.
We all gain experience from the roads that we drive so we all have experience leaning more towards certain types of driving than others.
I do agree that anticipating hazards is absolutely the way to avoid many many needs for any hard braking or swerving. In many years of driving I have on a few swerves on my record. I cannot say that I indicated for any of them, there was other much more important tasks to do and there would have been no benefit at all. The thinking time and concentration was purely on the 'absolute task' and indicating would have been an un-necessary extra.

I think a reminder to others about having lights on is not really policing others, but a friendly reminder of a need for safety and requirement (depending on the light levels). As 'light's' on is down to each persons perception of 'dullness' it will vary and then vary across the Country as darkness falls at different times and in varying weather conditions.

Hazard hard-braking thread here .... :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 08:54 
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Quote:
graball wrote:

Steve wrote:Is 'could manage' good enough when speed, accuracy and precision is paramount?


Well I will have to strongly disagree due to the simple effect of the G-forces involved. With one hand on the wheel, when applying steering at speed, as the hand reaches the top or bottom of the steering arc, it will be influenced by the sideways g-force. The effect would give a feedback, either positive or negative (depending on what hand steered where), and doesn't lend itself to the precision control needed for evasion at speed.


Steve , have you never driven a car without power steering, especially a front wheel drive, like a mark 1 XR2, the steering is so heavy on them when compared to a power steering assisted car. When I went from an XR2 to a toyota supra and then back again you really noticed the different muscles that you had to use to turn the wheel and yet funny enough, thousands of people drove those cars and yes, managed to indicate without crashing. What if you were to be changing gear and a dog or child ran out in ftront of you, would you hit it? Have you never done a handbrake turn? That involves far more steering precision, one handed, than merely swerving away from a car pulling out in front of you.

Perhaps you should watch this clip to see some precision one handed driving, in a front wheel drive (non power steering) car...I notice he couldn't manage to indicate much though, shame on him....;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PjMNbyqEWY

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 22:35 
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graball wrote:
Steve wrote:
Well I will have to strongly disagree due to the simple effect of the G-forces involved. With one hand on the wheel, when applying steering at speed, as the hand reaches the top or bottom of the steering arc, it will be influenced by the sideways g-force. The effect would give a feedback, either positive or negative (depending on what hand steered where), and doesn't lend itself to the precision control needed for evasion at speed.


Steve , have you never driven a car without power steering, especially a front wheel drive, like a mark 1 XR2, the steering is so heavy on them when compared to a power steering assisted car. When I went from an XR2 to a toyota supra and then back again you really noticed the different muscles that you had to use to turn the wheel and yet funny enough, thousands of people drove those cars and yes, managed to indicate without crashing.

I hope you can understand that there is a gulf of difference between indicating an intention during normal driving conditions and not falling off the road and trying to indicate while performing an swift, physically aggressive, unintended, emergency manoeuvre and successfully evading other road users !!

graball wrote:
What if you were to be changing gear

Ah, so would you still indicate while performing an emergency manoeuvre when changing gear? :D

graball wrote:
Have you never done a handbrake turn? That involves far more steering precision, one handed, than merely swerving away from a car pulling out in front of you.

Perhaps you should watch this clip to see some precision one handed driving, in a front wheel drive (non power steering) car...I notice he couldn't manage to indicate much though, shame on him....;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PjMNbyqEWY

That's an unfair example. He is a 'champion' at it, and his manoeuvres are planned, as opposed to panic reactions, so he knows what G-forces to expect and when. He probably has strong muscles too - well he must be very well practised, what with him being a champion!
I very much doubt these can be applied to all drivers, or indeed most.

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