Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Tue Nov 11, 2025 13:14

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 01:04 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 00:16
Posts: 67
Location: S Wales
A post from another thread, on insurance where the suggestion is for the government to run insurance centrally.
Quote:
Why not run it as a PLC, your premium is a share in the company for 3rd party liability and it is openly calculated by the power to weight ratio of the car (the damage it is capable of causing). Profit is given back to no fault share holders.
A second optional premium is for fire and theft openly calculated as a %of the value of the car with similar profit rules.
A third optional premium will cover replacement of vehicle, again calculated against vehicle value.

ie individuals still get to choose the level of cover but they pay to insure the car which anyone can drive with permission. If the vehicle is involved in an at fault accident the policy expires and must be renewed plus X% for 5 years reducing at X/5 each year.
SO! IF you choose to allow young son/daughter to drive it, watch out. 2 accidents in a year will cost 3 premiums for starters plus 2X% loading.

Any car driven on the road which has no insurance and is not reported as stolen becomes PLC property.

No fault policy/share holders stand to get some of their money back. At fault policy/share holders are penalised. Road safety is drastically improved in the first year of implementation so ALL premiums are reduced.

OH! And stuff the effects this has on insurance companies, they have failed to be open, made massive profits and fleece every one of us.

This is all recorded on a card you buy for the cost of road tax and without the card you can't MOT the vehicle, fail to MOT the vehicle means you have no insurance so the car belongs to the PLC and can be taken away if found on the road.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 09:54 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
SafeSpeed wrote:
But the law does not require cars to be insured. The law requires drivers to be insured.


Well thats a good place to start. Why not make the basic insurance requirements 3rd party ANY DRIVER.

That should do it.. :roll:

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:49 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Gizmo wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
But the law does not require cars to be insured. The law requires drivers to be insured.


Well thats a good place to start. Why not make the basic insurance requirements 3rd party ANY DRIVER.

That should do it.. :roll:


Nowhere close. I'll still be entitled to drive someone else's car.

And then there are loads of fleet policies that don't list each individual driver OR each individual vehicle.

Anyway, how would we impose that rule on insurance companies?

And anyway that'll cause a huge number of 17 year olds to manipulate the system by asking dad to insure the vehicle. Sometimes it'll be a Porsche.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 22:14 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
WHY -i insure my car for me only as no one in house drives - don't make
sense of paying more when don't have to.
Still can't see whats wrong with abolishing road tax & put it on petrol - stops tax dodging.
At moment no insurance -no road tax.
Change the system to make it no insurance - no mot - and display an insurance disk on windscreen to cover all cars


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 22:26 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
What p+sses me off about insurance is the fact that it is per driver per vehicle.

I have a car and a bike. I have had to rack up no claims on the bike insurance even though I have full no claims on the car....its a racket!

Hold on... I cannot use both at the same time so why do I need two insurance premiums. You should be able to get "driver" insurance that covers any car/bike then additional basic theft insurance for both.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 23:02 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 14:47
Posts: 1659
Location: A Dark Desert Highway
Gizmo is right about car bike insurance. When I was first looking to insure my (very slow) bike they asked if I had any no claims and advanced traing. So sir, not for a bike but I have lots on my car and an advanced test too. But that doesn't matter. But any crashes and points on my car policy count against me on my bike insurerance. Huh?

Don't like the idea of even more tax on my fuel, we have some of the most heavily taxed fuel in the developed world as it is. Cars need registering and I don't mind paying for it as long as those that don't get the treatment they deserve.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 23:04 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 00:16
Posts: 67
Location: S Wales
Quote:
....its a racket!


And that is just the point. Motor insurance companies are free to do as they please, so they do. They have consistantly refused to provide the information on how the premium is calculated (probably because they know they would be found guilty of descrimination) and they continue to rip off just about everyone.
Drivers for the most part are suspisious if not annoyed at premiums and that is where it starts. Some will choose not to pay and will probably get away with it. Then they can't get a tax disc so they knock one out on the computer. Then they figure, sod the MOT aswell. The chances of them getting caught is slim, SORN is meant to be the way ahead.

And the penalty if you are caught with no tax, insurance or MOT?
In most of the cases I've heard about considerably less than the cost of the above?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 23:07 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
adam.L wrote:
So sir, not for a bike but I have lots on my car and an advanced test too. But that doesn't matter. But any crashes and points on my car policy count against me on my bike insurerance. Huh?


Yep..the worst case I have heard is that of my boss. He pranged his company car. It was not his fault! but when he applied for bike insurance he had to confess to having made a claim...bingo! £20 penalty.. :shock:

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 23:56 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
botach wrote:
WHY -i insure my car for me only as no one in house drives - don't make
sense of paying more when don't have to.
Still can't see whats wrong with abolishing road tax & put it on petrol - stops tax dodging.
At moment no insurance -no road tax.
Change the system to make it no insurance - no mot - and display an insurance disk on windscreen to cover all cars



Parts of EU require a new number plate each year. The insurance, VED, and any MOT requirement are visible on the plate. Vehicle then matches RK records and log book. Not really a disadvantage if you sell car as new owner has to shell out for new number plate just the same.

If you place an insurance premium in cost of petrol (which is already high in duty and tax)... high mileage users would just be putting into pot and subsidising more than they do already with the surcharge to the MIB. Those who cause the crunches could even be underinsured for the amount of damage they cause. It would also be a nightmare to work out who to sue for an insurance pay-out - should they ever be faced with our situation all those years ago :roll: State run system would even worse to deal with than the sharks we were dealing with at the time.

After all ... not exactly good track record on the NHS, State Education, Welfare State etc, etc, etc....to date :roll:

Have to agree with my wife and her family on this one... German logic :roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 14:28 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 19:26
Posts: 39
Several points:

1) I had my car 'stolen'. It was actually towed because they thought it was abandoned. They sent no letter to any of the insured drivers or to the registered keeper. Which was really annoying. Especially considering I had had it declared SORN.

2) Car insurances aren't a rip off as often thought. The last figures I saw which compared premiums to pay outs, put motor insurances on a loss of £100million in one year.

3) They aren't free to do as they please. Most of them abide by GISC and come this January will have to abide by FSA regulations.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 14:38 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Mod wrote:
2) Car insurances aren't a rip off as often thought. The last figures I saw which compared premiums to pay outs, put motor insurances on a loss of £100million in one year.


Such figures are a bit of a cheat. The insurance companies are awash with cash because of the time gap between premium and payout. They invest that cash and get good returns. Yes, they make a loss on premiums, payouts and admin, but they make a hugh sum on the invested cash. It's a bit fake of them to claim they're making a loss, when they wouldn't have the cash to invest if it wasn't for the motor insurance business.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 14:50 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 19:26
Posts: 39
The figures aren't a cheat really. Naturally the reason to get into car insurance in the first place is to have access to a huge pool of liquid assets, to invest and make money. That's perfectly acceptable behaviour. The point is, that the premiums that we all pay don't go towards making the insurance companies richer, ie, they are not ripping anyone off, because the money they take from us, is given back to us and then some. The people who are ripping you off are the fraudsters...since they drive insurance up wonderfully, as well as the crazy drivers, and thieves.


Net Premiums: 9.5 billion

Total claims and expenses: £9.6 billion


http://www.abi.org.uk/Display/default.a ... =1,506,507


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:00 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Mod wrote:

Net Premiums: 9.5 billion

Total claims and expenses: £9.6 billion


Average delay between premium and payout: 2 years. Cash available for investment = £19 billion. What sort of safe annual return does one get on 19 billion? 8%? 8% of £19 billion = £1.5 billion.

Any reasonable person would say they made £1.4 billion annual profit on motor insuranace business.

OK, so my figures (2 years, 8%) are just guesses, but even so, we can see what's going on here can't we?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:01 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 17:46
Posts: 823
Location: Saltburn, N. Yorks
They get ripped off also.
Last year, I had the misfortune to glance off the offside rear of a chavette in a Micra; on a clear, straight road at about 15mph, as I was pulling out to pass, for no obvious reason she braked so hard that her labrador burst the rear seat clips as it was ejected into the rear foot-well from the boot. After her tantrums stopped, we exchanged details (no injuries), and departed.

Whilst shopping around for insurance cover this autumn, I was asked for details as to the cost of my accident. I rang Cornhill, who said the cost was £5700. My portion was £520. (N/S wing and headlight).
This chavette somehow conned nearly £5200 from them! When I queried it, the girl on the phone said that the assessors had OK'd it!
I'm sure an N reg Micra isn't worth that much, plus the only damage appeared to be a scuffed bumper on an already ill-treated car. :?

Later, I discovered she had had a panic attack after driving off a country road at high speed the previous Christmas (this was March), writing off her car and narrowly escaping death!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:29 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 19:26
Posts: 39
As I said Paul:

Quote:
Naturally the reason to get into car insurance in the first place is to have access to a huge pool of liquid assets, to invest and make money. That's perfectly acceptable behaviour


If motor insurance was a near guaranteed way to lose 10million a year, no one would do it. Of course they gain from it. The issue isn't if motor insurance is a viable business model, but if the premiums the insurance people charge are unreasonable and are a 'rip off'. I think the fact that they pay more out in claims and expenses than they take in premiums would indicate that premiums are not a rip off, but a fairly accurate indicator of risk for the insurer.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:38 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Mod wrote:
As I said Paul:

Quote:
Naturally the reason to get into car insurance in the first place is to have access to a huge pool of liquid assets, to invest and make money. That's perfectly acceptable behaviour


If motor insurance was a near guaranteed way to lose 10million a year, no one would do it. Of course they gain from it. The issue isn't if motor insurance is a viable business model, but if the premiums the insurance people charge are unreasonable and are a 'rip off'. I think the fact that they pay more out in claims and expenses than they take in premiums would indicate that premiums are not a rip off, but a fairly accurate indicator of risk for the insurer.


Then it seems we were at cross purposes. I don't think the insurance companies are (in a general sense) ripping us off. On the other hand, I'm confident that they make a tidy profit on the business - that's what businesses do and what a free market properly regulates - I have absolutely no objection to businesses making a profit.

But claiming that they make a loss isn't the whole truth is it?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:47 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:05
Posts: 1044
Location: Hillingdon
Mod wrote:
I think the fact that they pay more out in claims and expenses than they take in premiums would indicate that premiums are not a rip off, but a fairly accurate indicator of risk for the insurer.


Is there not, however, an element of chicken and egg here? Part of the reason premiums are so high is to cover the losses from fraudulent claims which go undetected. Part of the reason fraudulent claims are made is because people consider premiums to be too high and are looking for a way to get something back from the insurers. It doesn't really matter why people thought premiums were too high initially, what matters now is that we've got into this loop and need a way out before premiums get so high that going without insurance is seen as the lesser evil by the majority of drivers.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 15:48 
Offline
User

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 19:26
Posts: 39
Absolutely, they don't make a loss. I tried to carefully word my sentence to include :"which compared premiums to pay outs" to take this into account.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 19:37 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 16:40
Posts: 3
Location: West Midlands, England
Actually, uninsured drivers save us money when you think about it, because the insurance companies don't have to pay out.

It does mean that those of us who still pay for insurance have to buy fully comprehensive though.

I think that it is unlicenced/banned drivers who pose a bigger risk to our safety.

(Please don't think I am condoning driving without insurance, it is just that I feel it is distracting from a bigger problem)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 19:42 
Offline
User

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 00:16
Posts: 67
Location: S Wales
Quote:
I think the fact that they pay more out in claims and expenses than they take in premiums would indicate that premiums are not a rip off, but a fairly accurate indicator of risk for the insurer.

But that was not the plan, the plan is to make a moderate profit on premiums that could be declared without huge outcry from drivers whilst the HUGE hidden investment profit goes nicely in the pocket, thank you very much.

Or should we be more sceptical and suggest that running at a loss is actually extreemly benificial to the insurance industry

When a loss IS declared we all expect a premium hike so insurance premiums will provide in excess of £10bn with an improved investment return forecast. Run that £10bn at a loss and increase premiums again. now they have £11bn to invest.

Rip off.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.030s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]