Safe Speed Forums

Absolutely. But it might be hard to know and harder to prove that the camera that flashed you had such a system connected.

This might be a good series of "freedom of information" questions:

Have you ever operated a speed camera system that used technical means to distinguish between different vehicle types?

If you have, what sites and what dates were so equipped?

Did any prosecutions result from the installation(s)?

Were these prosecutions made using equipment that conformed to Home Office type approval?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I know just the person to ask on this one and I will also pose the question of whether the systems are being employed and where.
A few months ago he did say that there was a "situation" that could bring the whole scamera system down, perhaps it's in the software?

Well I asked the question and yes there is software being employed that determines the length of the vehicle. From this the camera may be triggered at a speed lower than the set limit. The rest of the process is done by standard checks on the number plate and the picture check.
How this applies to this case I don't know as this is a car derived van but there you go.

Is it legal?? I don't know that either.

I can't see it working in this case as the Dispatch is a good bit shorter than Citroen's longest car - the C5 estate (which is almost the longest car they have ever built).

Er, no. The "car-derived van" bit only applies to light goods vehicles under 2 tonne MGW. All light goods vehicle with MGW over 2000 kg together with light goods vehicles of MGW of 2 tonnes or less that are not car-derived vans are subject to the lower limit.
[/quote]

To illustrate just how daft this law is.

A Citroen Berlingo has a maximum laden weight of over 2000kg. There is a car version which is an identical vehicle with windows and a folding seat in the back. Presumably the van is subject to the lower limits yet the car, even if fully laden to the extent that the side and rear windows cannot be used can drive 10mph faster.

Madness.

BTW the C5 estate is also over 2000kg fully laden. (2.0HDI 2132kg) the C8 weighs in at a whopping 2505kg, yet is still classed as a car.

It makes me wonder why the speed camera was triggered at below the speed limit. Perhaps there was a long vehicle in the target area, which ment the camera settings were changed. The citron was simply driving through at the time and was ID'd on the PNC /visual check.
An alternative explaination would be that the camera was set at 60 and was flashing everyone or perhaps was simply malfunctioning?

One question not yet asked that perhaps someone could clarify. What about a secondary check? Are the road markings not a specific distance apart depending on the road speed? ie the flash is 0.5 seconds apart and if the vehicle has covered 2 gaps = guilty. In this case that would not be the case.

I can't think of any other reason for the camera going off so we're left with
1. Camera being affected by another vehicle
2. Camera incorrectly set for speed limit
3. Camera broken
with a fall back of no accurate secondary check.

Pretty defendable case?

Could have been a dummy Gatso flashing everything that moved with a Talivan hiding in the bushes.

What kind of camera was it?

I dont see how a gatso can possibly determine the length of a vehicle without doing some fancy radar signature stuff, although I have seen a website that claims this to be true (gatso's site does not claim this as a feature, neither does truvelo). A truvello on the other hand has piezo sensors in the road to measure the speed, and to trigger the flash at the correct moment. Having already determined the speed, it would then be possible to measure the time before the rear wheels crossed, and calculate the approx length of the vehicle.

But then, if its a dual cariageway, what if another vehicle was crossing the sensors at a similar time. An extra set of sensors would be required to differentiate between the lanes.

Any experts out there?

I have just been talking rubbish, the truvelo would have to flash every vehicle at the lower limt for my theory to work, It would have to differentiate the size of the vehicle BEFORE flashing, and that is not possible without some extra sensors.

sorry

just to clarify, i was the only vehicle going through at the time. the road was virtually empty. phoned cleveland police up and they say that that is the law. which infact is correct so legally i dont think i have a leg to stand on. Just have to put it down to bad luck i guess.

See the thread on Drunk in Charge. It is THE LAW that you are legally drunk in charge if you have a bottle of wine in your camper van on a campsite.

Personally I would at least take it to court just to deny the scameraship their pound of flesh.

Firstly, I am not a lawyer and any comments that I make do not constitute legal advice.

FWIW, I'm not sure what type of device pinged you. Some discrimination must have been employed because you were travelling under the speed limit for an MPV. If it was an automatic device (Gatso, Truvelo, SPECS), that got you then, AIUI from comments up-thread, if automatic discrimination determined whether the scamera should fire, then the device was not operated within the rules for Home Office type approval. If so, then the evidence from the scamera should be inadmissible and the case against you should fail.

If the discrimination was from human judgement (e.g. you got pinged by someone in a talivan) I suspect that you're done to rights. However, for Gatso's etc., I find it hard to accept that the scamera pratnership would pay someone to sift through thousands of images of vehicles doing 68 mph or above to identify the vans with MGW over 2 tonnes and cars doing over 79 mph, and so send NIP's to only those vehicles. That said, I'm not sure of the situation if an automatic system did the filtering at this stage -- but that would involve the nugatory production of thousands of images, the cost of which I suspect the praternship would want to avoid.

Does the NIP say what device was used? If it was an automatic device and it were me, I'd get over to pepipoo to investigate my chances.

Of course the pratnership may not be helpful if you ask them how the evidence was collected and processed, but the Freedom of Information Act comes into force in January. If I understand it correctly, this gives you the right to know the procedure used both for the collection and processing of the evidence the scamera pratnership have used against you. You should be able to use this to show the system was operated outside Home Office rules. If you contest your case in court and are found guilty before the pratnership meets its obligations under FoI, you should be able to appeal on the basis of new evidence if the pratnership's disclosure shows they had operated outside the rules.

I suppose that it depends how important a clean license is to you, and how cantankerous you feel because the costs involved in taking this all the way may be considerable. After all, you were speeding even if you didn't know it at the time.

_________________
Will

it was a gatso that got me, i drive past it many times. To be honest I think I am just going to take it on the chin. But I am peeved about it, but when it comes down to it I am breaking the law so cannot fight it.

I have always ahd a clean licence and just feel that, having never been in any trouble with the police in my life, it is the likes of myself that get's punished and other toerags walk away scot free.

I'm concerned that this Gatso is zapping other people who do 65 legally in a 70 zone.

Unfortunatly it sounds correct mate, I was like you I didn,t realise it until I was captured either but when you drive a van you have to drive at a lower speed limit. A few years ago I was driving a Mercedes Vito van on a main dual carriageway, I was in the left hand lane doing a steady 70Mph there was a police traffic car about 30 Yards ahead and about 4 or 5 vehicles in front of the police car, we where all just driving along but the cops where monitoring me on VASCAR and they done me for doing 70Mph. Also a colleague of my mates was recently done for doing 72Mph on a 3 lane Motorway in a transit van.

But - assuming the motorway has a 70 limit - the speed limit for a transit van is 70.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed