Safe Speed Forums

Hi back again, Received N I P 34 days after alleged offence, wrote asked for photos as three of us use the car etc. also took the opportunity to point out the 34 day lapse! asked for the pictures......duly received (they ignored the 34 day lapse), studied said pictures, sent back polite letter (got it off PePipoo) explaining how I could not identify the driver from the pictures etc. again reminded them of the 34 day lapse. Got a letter yesterday, explaining that they sent the letter on the 21/10 (oh no they never! and i have the proof, including the original envelope) they have kindly explained that being as neither I or they can identify the driver they intend to forward the case along with all correspondence to the CPS for consideration. So, what do we all think? Am I in with a shout or not?

This is following on from here.

I can only presume that the SCP will state that they sent the first NIP (21/10/06) for the offence of 15/10/06 to whoever the registered keeper is at that time on the DVLA database. As far as they are concerned they have served the NIP to the registered keeper as required by law. It's not impossible that the database wasn't updated with your purchase of the car from only a week before (7/10/06) and the NIP recipient (the previous owner) gave them your details.

If that was the case I would say you’re stuffed. IMO it’s not worth fighting, especially if you really were speeding!

okay, but the time aside, it cannot be categorically established from the pictures who was driving. We have explained to them that it could have been one of three of us driving, are you suggesting the registered keeper should cough for this?

No. If you can genuinely say that you don't know who was driving and you can demonstrate that to a court, then that is what you should do.

However, if the court finds a shred of any form of evidence for which you could have deduced who was at the wheel, then you're in big trouble. These are small things like credit/debit card statements, appointments, proof of being at work, who was insured to use the vehicle at the time of the offence..... that kind of thing.

since when in English Law did you have to prove your innocence?

no way Hose

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Welcome to the UK, the Land of "Selective Freedoms"

Since section 4 of this:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/Uk ... htm#mdiv21

Since they started taking money


Answering the question,
An offence has been committed, that’s not in question (unless they used the dodgyscope for evidence capture but that’s another issue). If the registered keeper cannot show uncertainty of who committed the offence, then it follows that the registered keeper must haven been the offender.

Granted that law has no provision for others who could have temporarily ‘borrowed’ the vehicle without knowledge of the RK, but ‘on balance’ the mags won’t consider it because it’s not a common enough occurrence. If it becomes common then the law will be fudged to accommodate.

Meredydd Hughes has no idea who drives his vehicles, why should they apply a more stringent standard to you?

well takes me right back to school this does, this is the classic school bully taking my dinner money off me!! I do not know whether it is me or the missus driving. Genuine, honest truth. How can I do any more? So I am going to be summoned to Court (Headmasters office) where they will find in favour of the school bully. I have no audit trail as such, to prove who was driving, and as I see it the only evidence they have is the photos. Which prove nothing as regards to who was driving. Feels like this has gone beyond the point where I can say "okay it was me" and pay up like a good boy, so looks like a trot to court, great never been before so not really looking forward to that one. What do I say to the judge??? "It wasn`t me" some how seems a little lame, but its pretty well all I have. To be honest this stinks, it ain`t about the money for me, or the points (we both have clean licences) why dont they just adapt these cameras so they have a swipe slot on the bottom? That way we can all just chip and pin the £60, and the law will be happy, safe in the knowledge that its coffers have been further swelled by, well whoever, they wouldn`t be so bothered about who it was then i suspect. The Police are no longer doing their jobs when a machine spits out a ticket, and its up to us to defend ourselves/ prove our innocence. Its wrong.
Ah well reality is slowly sinking in, better get the old cheque book out and pay up I suppose.

It seems you are indeed between a rock and a hard place.

Before getting the cheque book out and you taking the blame for a crime you may not have committed (isn't that perverting the course?) I would write to the SCP and explain again that it could have been either of you and if their photographs do not show who was driving at the time what other steps do they suggest you take to ascertain who was driving.

If they suggest anything then make sure you do exactly as they suggest and (where possible) show evidence of you carrying out these steps.

When your day in court comes you can tell the judge the position, show and tell them what steps you have taken to ascertain who was driving and how this did not help, you have shown due diligence and although not impossible a judge is going to find it hard to find against you or your wife.

The problem is that is a lot of hassle, possibly quite scary (especially for people who have never been to court) and potentially quite expensive if it all goes wrong. The good news either way is the parasites don't get your money and hopefully justice will be done.

Most important is that if you genuinly cannot remember who was driving at the time and you have made every efforct to ascertain who was then this is a valid defence and you should be found not guilty, the parasites exist only because of their bullying tactics.

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It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

Thanks for that, steps taken to prove who was driving are quite difficult to demonstrate. New car, just driving around a bit as you do. Not a planeed journey or anything, unlikely to be on any cctv at filling stations etc. as we didn`t stop for fuel or anything like that. We don`t even know where we where going!!! Just jollying round as you do. Seems that you have got to keep a log of where you go times dates etc. who was driving. Big brother or what? I thought we had freedom to roam wherever and whenever we wanted, without fear of being prosecuted. I am sick of the whole thing, which is what they probably want, but it seems that the dice are firmly loaded in their favour. And the general public are there for the taking so to speak. I have never denied an offence was commited, but why should I have to prove who did it? I thought that was their fu*@ing job!!!!!! Excuse the potty mouth, but this just makes me so angry. Might just turn up to court in a full Jilbab or Berka or Yashmak or whatever it is with the missus, and see what happens, let them see if they can tell the difference. Is it illegal to drive wearing one of them by the way? I might start doing it anyway for the crack. Could be a test case coming up here you know. You gotta laugh I suppose.
No offence to anyone who does wear the above attire by the way, I am just venting a bit and trying to make a point.

You need to remember that "they" are coming-down heavily on those suspected of "conspiracy to pervert the course of justice" (lying about who was driving) and that IN THE EVENT of them deciding you (or another) (or both) are lying, you can expect to be arrested and questioned for a criminal offence. You can also expect to be asked to produce proof of insurance for all those who could have been driving.
You need to remember that "innocent until proven guilty" has been in decline for several decades. Effectively, you will need to prove to magistrates that you were not driving, or that you genuinely have no idea who was driving, and that those who MAY have been driving ALSO have no idea that whether they were driving !
When you consider that the mags are part of the "triumvirate of evil" (SCP), you may decide that you ain't got much chance.

Well time for an update........................nothing has happened. Nowt. Nada. Not a peep, is it too early to be thinking that I am off the hook? not really heard anything since December, original alleged offence was last October. Any thoughts please?

Thanks for the update Eddie.

I can only assume you returned the NIP pleading not guilty. If so then the prosecution have 6 months (from date of offence) to file their paperwork with the court - even then you might not hear anything for a while afterwards. I would be surprised if they drop this one given that you’ve not contested the alleged speed.
I reckon it’s too early to crack open the champagne I’m afraid.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Cheers Smeggy, well we will see, I haven`t pleaded either way. It still has not been established who was driving, so it is being "considered" for prosecution, I am keeping my fingers crossed, so who knows, youv`e gotta have a go. I

They can't properly mount a prosecution for speeding as they have no evidence as to the identity of the driver.

What they may try is failure to supply on the grounds that you have not named a driver as required by S172. To this you are mounting a Sect 4 defence, that you cannot determine who was driving at the time.

Note that the test is not due diligence, but reasonable diligence; you will need to convince the magistrates that you have made a reasonable effort but failed. You do, however, need to be aware that if you do actually know, then you are attempting to pervert the course of justice and if convicted of this, you will be looking at jail time.

On the day, it will depend on whether or not you come across as credible. Do not under any circumstances allow yourself to be put on oath as a witness, they will simply ask the direct question "Were you driving?", and lying then would be perjury.

When s172 first came in SCPs used to accept a statement that the RK couldn't remember who was driving.

Then a well known anti camera website (not this one) put forward the suggestion that if everybody "forgot" (their italics) who was driving the system would collapse. The word spread and lots of people "forgot" in addition to those who genuinely can't remember.

The system took the logical next step and ceased to believe anybody, so almost all cases go to court. This scares a lot of people, which is not surprising when you read some of the rubbish that is put out as fact.

Yes, court admin is often part of a SCP. Not surprising when ticket offices pass a significant percentage of their clients along to the courts, which generates a lot of paperwork.
JPs are not part of SCPs. Neither are court clerks.
The judicial independence of JPs and clerks is guaranteed in law and jealously guarded. Any attempt by the pen pushers to compromise that independence would be met with fierce resistance. Decisions about where money, from whatever source, is to be spent are taken by admin. They guard that right every bit as strongly as we guard our independence.


If you defend yourself you will almost certainly be asked to go on oath to state what steps you took to find out who was driving. If you refuse to take the oath your evidence will probably be declared inadmissable. If you genuinely don't know, that would take away your best chance of getting a not guilty verdict.


The vast majority of s172 cases result in a not guilty verdict, provided you have made reasonable efforts to ID the driver.

Yep. Want to know why your impecable character isn't taken into consideration when you need the 'system' to give you a bit of a break folks ...

1. The system gives us a bit of leeway
2. The piss gets taken
3. The system loses patience and everyone suffers

Seriously, it could be one of three driving. I have provided names and addresses of these people. I have studied the pictures they provided, and asked for anything else they may have to help me identify the driver. Being as we do not keep a log of journeys (who does!) and this was last October, I have no way of safely or accurately saying who was driving. Please also remember that they took 35 days to inform me of this, not 14. They have chosen to ignore this, in spite of me pointing this out on several occasions in correspondence. I have the post marked envelope to prove this as well. I am a law abiding driver, with a clean licence. I wish to defend this. What more can I do ( apart from shut up and pay up)

Didn't mean to infer you were taking the piss BTW eddie. Just pointing out what happens when too many others do.