Safe Speed Forums

There are occasional conditions of heavy spray where rear fogs may be useful, despite the legal obligations - not that I can actually remember such conditions in the last decade or so...

But, and this is important, front fogs, especially when properly aligned, can produce a lot of reflected glare from puddles or wet roads. It's not that front fog light produce direct glare - they shouldn't - but put a virtual mirror on the road in front of them and they can be pretty horrid.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Which brings us back to part of my original question, if it is foggy and my rear fog light is on and a vehicle comes up behind me and can see me without the foglight needing to be on is it a)sensible and b)legal to switch it off so as not to dazzle the driver - unlike the person in front of me this morning whose switched on fog light was giving me problems and resticting my visibility.
On the subject of front fog lights and proper alignment of said items - about 1 in 10 the rest aim all over the place

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Stupid is as Stupid does

Nope. Given the dates involved, it's probably Mary Hopkins singing: "Those were the days, my friend".

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Just to add my 2ps worth, as rear blinding lights are one of my pet hates.

In over 25 years of driving, I have only ONCE found conditions that would warrant the use of my rear blinding light. (Thick fog, "A" road, daylight, no visible traffic, the blinding light allows faster drivers to realise I am in front).

In my view they are totally unnecessary in town. I am unlikely to run into a moving vehicle in fog with normal rear lighting. If it is slowing, or stopped, it has bright brake lights.

On the other hand, I am more likely to run into a stationary car with no lights, or to run into the back of a wall of glare that increases only infinitesimally when the brakes are on.

As regards headlights vs sidelights under streetlamps. If you can't see a moving object with side marker lights how on earth do you spot unlighted parked vehicles and pedestrians? I think we need better streetlights, and sidelights only in towns.

IMHO the problem with modern headlights is that due to their sharp cutoff people "adjust" them so they get more light in front, or fit "uprated" bulbs. I am frequently blinded by the gas discharge set ups on posh cars. I suspect that with their increased efficiency, they are probably the equivalent of 200W lamps even on dip.

Top Tip of the Day...

"Drivers, pressing the fog light switch after the fog has cleared turns them off"

AFAICT, that's wrong; it's a myth probably perpertated from one police officer's opinion. Use of fog lights is governed by the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, which state that use of fog lights are prohibited except under conditions of seriously reduced visibility. It doesn't matter how the conditions of seriously reduced visibility arise; if visibility is seriously reduce no matter whether it's through fog, snow, heavy rain, spray, or even smoke from a forest fire, AFAICT you may legally use fog lights. However, those regulations do not define "seriously reduced visibility", which means that term is open to interpretation and you would need to convince a court that your assessment of the visibility was reasonable.

For front fog lamps, the following manners of use are prohibited.

1. Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road.
2. Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
3. Used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked.

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Will

I was thinking more of when those "I remember when I were a lad..." adverts were being run - surely that was the mid to late '70's?

You don't look your age in your publicity pics, Paul!

Thanks for that! As I said, some people have a misinformed opinion of when these lights should be used, and get irate when someone suggests reasonable use based on the conditions.

IMHO it would be reasonable for these lights to come on at the same time as main-beam headlights - assuming the main beam was being used correctly of course, but sadly the regulations don't allow for that.

I thought that's what this website was all about - carefully considered responses to judging levels of safety rather than blithely following arbitrarily set limits that may or may not take into account the prevailing conditions.

Ah yes, but the Hovis adverts were harping back to the 30s (or something). I was harping back to the 70s. FWIW. Great lyrics in the Mary Hopkins song. I dug them out:

Once upon a time, there was a tavern
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours,
Think of all the great things we would do

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we'd choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way

Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di

Then, the busy years went rushing by us
We lost our starry notions on the way
If, by chance, I'd see you in the tavern,
We'd smile at one another and we'd say

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we'd choose
We'd fight and never lose
Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di

Just tonight, I stood before the tavern
Nothing seemed the way it used to be
In the glass, I saw a strange reflection
Was that lonely woman really me?

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we'd choose
We'd fight and never lose
Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di

Through the door, there came familiar laughter
I saw your face and heard you call my name
Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser
For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we'd choose
We'd fight and never lose
Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di
Di di di di di di di di di di

La la la la la la
La la la la la la
La la la la la la




I'm 49, but I don't feel a day over 25... In fact I feel as if I've been stuck at 25 for 30 years.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Willcove, I did not know the law had changed. My apologies to all, but the Highway Code rule 201 still gives 100m as the guideline.

As to the original thread, I think only the front and rear vehicles in a line need to be lit up like Christmas trees.

OK, how about giving the poor old lyricist a credit, seeing as you've quoted his song all the way through? A bit of digging reveals the writer to be one Gene Raskin, who wrote it in the early 60's and based the tune on an old Russian (or possibly Ukrainian) folk song. Go on, you can hear the balalaikas now, can't you? This page tells the story:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pat.richmonds/mhfs.htm

A bit off-topic, but fascinating nonetheless. Oh, and she is/was Mary Hopkin with no "s". Pedantic, I know, but so is Sir Cliff.

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Keep right on to the end of the road ...

Can't argue with that. Thanks for correcting my oversight.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Parked vehicles don't move. Pedestrians move relatively slowly. In both cases, if I'm driving along a badly lit street where I can't use fullbeam, then I'll choose a speed which will allow me plenty of time to react if my dipped beams pick out a car parked where it shouldn't be, or a pedestrian crossing the road inbetween the pools of light from the streetlighting.

Now, throw another moving vehicle into the mix - driving straight towards me at a similar speed. I don't know it's there until it either comes into range of my dipped beams, or I can make out its weak and feeble sidelights. In either case, the increased closing speed means my time to react is cut down.

OK, you say, just drive a bit slower to give more time to react. Problem is, I don't know how fast the other vehicle is going, and in order to maintain the same safety buffer I'd need to drop my speed to maintain the same closing speed as if they were stationary. If I feel 20mph is the highest safe speed along a particular street, but the sidelight-only driver heading towards me thinks 30 is appropriate, I'd never be able to drive along that street in the opposite direction to them...

I understand how sidelights alone could be entirely safe when driving along a street which has an excellent lighting system, providing high levels of illumination across and along the entire carriageway. Trouble is, I don't know of many streets in the UK where the lighting is THAT good, and even when you do find one which would let you get away with just sidelights, the moment you turn onto another street where the lighting is bad, you then have to make the conscious decision that dipped beams is necessary. This isn't quite the same as the decision to switch between dipped and main beam - there you have a very clear indication on the dash of the state of your beams, and switching from one to the other is achieved by moving one of the control stalks, something that can be done without taking your hand off the wheel, or by taking it off for a split second. Contrast that to the sidelight/dipped beam situation, where there's no indication, and where switching from one to the other means definitely taking one hand off the wheel and then reaching around on the dash for the light switch.

IME, there are very few cars these days where you need to grope around the dash for the light switch. About the closest that I've driven in recent years to that is a Volvo 850, where the light switch is immediately behind the right-hand stalk. On every other car that I've driven in over a decade, the light switch is on the same stalk as the dipswitch. Also, most cars have two headlight indicators, a blue one for main beam and another colour for dip. So, it's very easy to tell whether you're on sidelights or dipped headlights.

However, all that is academic in UK because everyone now drives on dipped beam. When I started driving in the early seventies, people would flash you if your headlights were on in town; now they flash if your sidelights are on but your headlights are off. The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 permits use of sidelights only on restricted roads with street lighting -- but very few people do.

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Will

I suspect this is a fairly recent change to car design then. My current car ('97 Omega) doesn't indicate when dipped beam is switched on, and the only stalk control is for fullbeam - switching side and dipped beam on/off is controlled by a rotary switch to the right of the steering wheel - and none of the other cars I've driven have been much different (mind you, most of those were Vauxhalls as well...). The newest car I've had my hands on (for 4 short but wonderful days) was an '02 E Class - I can't remember what the light controls were like on that, but neither do I recall there being a dipped beam indicator on the dash (which, since it'd have been the first time I'd seen one, would probably have been something I would still remember).

So, if on new cars the controls are more closely to hand, and there's clear indication of the state of the lights, then give these changes about 10 years to filter right through the second hand market and then I'll take back my earlier comments

It depends on manufacturer - I know GM/Vauxhall continued to use dashboard switches when most other makers had moved over to column stalks.

I haven't driven a car since about 1990 where the light switches weren't on a column stalk.

However, I can't recall that any car I've driven had a dashboard light for dipped beam.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I don't think that it's a fairly recent change. My 1982 Datsun Bluebird 180B had all the lights on the same stalk and Volvos are the only cars that I've driven since then that don't. However, in UK sidelights are now so little used while moving that having all the lights on one stalk offers no significant advantage.

FWIW, about the most sensible dipswitch that I've ever had the pleasure to use was on my first car, a 1967 Triumph Herald 13/60 convertible, where the dipswitch was floor mounted near the clutch. It's the only car that I've ever driven where I could dip my headlights without any impact on steering in all circumstances! With other cars, if I'm cornering, there is a chance that I have to release my grip on the steering wheel with one hand, which I then slide into position to operate the dipswitch.

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Will

The W reg Astra we had at work until last year had a dash mounted side/dipped switch.


My early '90s Citroen BX had seperate dashboard lights for side, dipped and mainbeam. My '94 vintage Xantia had the same, it didn't work until I took the console out and changed the dozen or so blown bulbs.

The sidelight indication looked like this

Ford Escort had a light to show when the side lights of head lights are on.

VW and MG Rover use seperate switch next to the steering column

I had a 1962 Ford classic that had a main beam switch next to the clutch pedal...a great idea. should be standard equipment on all new cars.

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Speed camera policy Kills

While I agree about the benefit of a foot operated dip switch there are times where it is much quicker to flick the column stalk than to move your foot to the button on the floor, especially if you were in the process of changing gear as your foot would be on the clutch at the time.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!