Safe Speed Forums

As far as I can distinguish, there seems to be some confusion as to vans and their speed limits - where the weight is concerned.
A speed awareness workshop recently told me vans which weren't car derived had same speed limits as 7.5 tonners.
I thought few years back little brothers leaflet from police, along with his speeding ticket, showed vans over 2500kg's were subject to these limits.
Have recently seen 2000kg's stated as the weight to determine the van.
Then there's the issue of a car derived van weighing over 2000Kg's, is that car or van speed limits?

This has come about following this thread, where few van drivers realise the lower vehicle speed limits:
http://www.e36coupe.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

Believe there is some contradiction/confusion, between the RTRA and Highway code.
Can anyone clear this up please?

Link needs person to be member so can't comment.

But seems quite clear.

car derived vans examples are fiesta /corsavan etc, where the origonal was a car , and it weighs less than 2 tonnes ( metric anyone ?), and the weight limit seems to be the deciding factor( ) (IMHO from those statements i've seen, others are more knowledgeable)

And

Cheers for reply. This is where it seems to contradict Highway code:

"heavy motor car" means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor car, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen exceeds 2540 kilograms,

"invalid carriage" means a mechanically propelled vehicle the weight of which unladen does not exceed 254 kilograms and which is specially designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, for the use of a person suffering from some physical defect or disability and is used solely by such a person,

"light locomotive" means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is not constructed itself to carry a load other than any of the excepted articles and the weight of which unladen does not exceed 11690 kilograms but does exceed 7370 kilograms,

"motor car" means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor cycle or an invalid carriage, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight of which unladen—
(a) if it is constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects, is adapted to carry not more than seven passengers exclusive of the driver and is fitted with tyres of such type as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, does not exceed 3050 kilograms,
(b) if it is constructed or adapted for use for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description, does not exceed 3050 kilograms, or 3500 kilograms if the vehicle carries a container or containers for holding for the purposes of its propulsion any fuel which is wholly gaseous at 17.5 degrees Celsius under a pressure of 1.013 bar or plant and materials for producing such fuel,
(c) does not exceed 2540 kilograms in a case not falling within sub-paragraph (a) or (b) above.

Also, read up on the Citroen Berlingo van - presume this is car derived? Is advertised as GVW just under 2000, so is a plus point for buying as is not subject to lower speed limits. Same as old escort van.
From reading that a car derived van over 2000 would be subject to lower limits.
Don't think this ties in with section I have highlighted above, but does highway code?

I apologise for forum link, didn't realise.

Last time i saw those terms was on an old paper licence, in the days when you renewed it yearly.

The Berlingo van , from memory was discussed on here when someone was fined and AFAICR the outcome was that the weight was the factor.

Sorry - thought it was the old car derived van less than 2t vs the bigger van confusion - suspect that it might need one of our resident BIB to explain it ( and to me ,though i think i've got the bit about heavy motor car )

AFAICT the Highway Code gives the legal position.

Cars (which include car-derived vans with a max gross weight not exceeding 2,000 kg) are subject to 60/70/70 limits for single carriageway NSL, dual carriageway NSL, and motorways unless otherwise restricted.

Goods vehicles that are not "cars" and do not excced 7,500 kg max gross weight are subject to 50/60/70 (although that might be set to change for GVW over 3,500 kg with the introduction of speed limiters).

So, for a van that is either not car-derived or has a max gross weight (MAM) over 2,000 kg (2 tonnes), the lower limits apply.

There is an interesting issue here where there is a van with MAM under 2 tonnes and a corresponding car. I've seen opinions that if the car came first, the van has the higher limits, but if the van came first (as with the Berlingo) then the van has the lower limits because the car is van-derived rather than the van being car-derived. (and I know it sounds crazy - but then this whole thing about lower speed limits for 3.5-tonners is!)

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Will

"and I know it sounds crazy - but then this whole thing about lower speed limits for 3.5-tonners is!)"

Will - think the bit about Heavy CAR etc was the old method of distinguishing - as i said i remember it from old style licences.Thought it had gone with the new distinction in the HC.

So text I copied and pasted here is out-dated?
I mean, all we can do is drive to the highway code - right?
Unless stated otherwise, would it be fair to say simply 'vans over 2 tonnes have the lower limits'?

Berlingo thing I read about was just under 2.0 tonnes, so car derived or not is under the weight so I can't understand why the van speed limits would apply? Was highlighted as a selling point due to the different limits.

We're in a grey area here because if a van is "car-derived" and has a MAM not more than 2 tonnes, it "enjoys" the higher limits. In the case of the Berlingo, you say it meets the weight limit so whether the higher speed limits apply depends on whether the Berlingo is "car-derived".

Unfortunately, the Citroen Berlingo was produce first as a van and the Berlingo Multispace is an adaptation of that van. So, the Citroen Berlingo van isn't car-derived; rather, the Berlingo Multispace is a van-derived car!

That said, the above is just my understanding and I can't pin down a definition of "car-derived" - so I suspect that it will be up to a court to decide should someone be brave enough to push the point right up the legal system.

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Will

Understand what you're saying mate.
However, presuming Citroen/Mags have got it right, also the Highway Code stating weight only, would say it can do car speeds.
But, assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups, so will have to wait for a definitive answer or evidence

Will - got me thinking - several CARS others that started off life as a van , although probably be under the 2T, think the practice started of on the Continent--

VW caddie with windows and rear seats, Renault Kango the same --possibly others.(some big ones - VITO ), and then the transit Tourneo

They're all basically van derived cars -

This whole thing is stupid, stupid, stupid

If it's a goods vehicle it's subject to the lower limit. However, if you put some side windows in, a cooker, a bed, a table, a wardrobe, a sink, and then tell DVLA it's a motorcaravan, it suddenly sprouts a higher speed limit even though you can load the thing up to the same as you could as a van and you haven't done a dickybird to the brakes or running gear.

Personally, I think it should be 3.5 tonnes and under means 60/70/70; 3.5 tonnes to 7.5 tonnes means 50/60/70 and over 7.5 tonnes means 40/50/60 - irrespective of whether it's a passenger or goods vehicle. (FWIW, I feel the HGV40 is wrong, but I only want to address one injustice at a time!)

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Will

It is all stupid.
I remember reading some DSCP minutes where they had sent out some propaganda packs to local companies and most of them didn't realise how the speed limits for vans worked.

Assuming most people don't realise that a small van has a lower speed limit and drive faster than it, doesn't that prove that the limit isn't needed?

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Andrew.

The whole CDV thing is a huge grey area, and having looked into it a while back the manufacturer's websites don't seem to ever state their type.

I remember the Renault Kangoo discussion, one other interesting vehicle was the Ford Transit Connect - it looks a bit like a Fusion but is an entirely purpose-built goods vehicle, so even if they did a < 2000kg version it would be subject to 50/60/70 limits.

A survey of light goods vehicle drivers would be very interesting, I estimate that over 80% of them think they have the same limits as cars.

That said, I think we would be surprised to see how many people think you can only do 60mph on a dual carriageway.

I think this is a bit shocking...
Every single reply is wrong except for the one suggesting people look at the highway code page.

Do people really not know how our stupid national speed limits work?

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Andrew.

I totaly agree that the whole system is misleading - what we need to arrive now is a resident trafpol (like IG) to explain the whole thing.

Are van derived cars the same as a car derived van??
The bit about HGVs --don't get me started, those blokes (and blokesses) have my total sympathy.How much this total falacy adds to congestion would be amazing to find out.

I drive HGV's, and on all NSL roads do 54, which I'm governed at.
Is safer on balance, as you sit at 40 and people get so desperate to overtake they take crazy chances.
People argue they can overtake easier if you do 40 - but majority just sit there, and end up with hundreds of cars behind!

Is saying all vans, irrespective of derivity (if that's a word) 2 tonne and over are subject to 50/60/70 incorrect?

CallyT --safest thing for van drivers in present climate is to stick by HC recommendations. OK, MOST cameras /vans are set to ping at maximum limit 10%+2 ,but some nasty counties ( Can definately state Warks as one ,ref A5/A444 camera) set cameras to ping HGV at 40+10%+2(=46).I've never been done in a Transit, but then i make allowances for rear door movement etc as in the 80 MPH bus scenario,where rear panel set off camera or HGV sitting at camera sets one off ,and SCP staff send out NIP without checking to maximise profit.

As for the origonal bits , others on here are legal experts/BIB/etc - who'l be happy to define the limits.

http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/DefensiveDriving/Speed/UK_Speed_limits.html

The Freight Transport Association (FTA) has issued a warning to fleet operators because it says awareness of a new law that will make 56mph speed limiters on many larger vans a legal requirement from 1 January 2007 is low.

The first phase of the European Union directive 2002/85/EC was phased in in January 2005. Ultimately the regulations will mean that by 2008 most commercial vehicles over 3.5 tonnes and passenger carrying vehicles - regardless of whether they are used abroad or not - will have to be fitted with speed limiters.

The second phase means that from 1 January 2007 all Euro 3 diesel commercial vehicles and minibuses registered between 1 October 2001 and 31 December 2004, being used exclusively on UK roads, and with a GDW of 3,501-7,500kg must be retrofitted with a speed limiter.

From January, these vehicles will also not be permitted in the outside lane of a three or more lane motorway.

From January 2008, the same rule will also apply to all commercial vehicles and minibuses registered after 1 January 2005, whether used on UK roads or internationally.

For national and international vehicles in the range 7,501kg to 12,000kg first used before 1August 1992, a speed limiter will not be required. For all vehicles in the range 7,501kg to 12,000kg first used between 1 August 1992 and 30 September 2001, the existing requirements for a speed limiter calibrated to 60mph will continue.

As the rules will not apply to vehicles under 3.5 tonnes, most small vans and transit type vehicles will be exempt from the regulations.

The FTA has claimed that few of the vehicles that require speed limiters by January have been booked into calibration centres to have the speed limiter function activated and calibrated.

It warns that as the programme has been on going for almost two years, it is unlikely that the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) will allow any period of grace. Van operators affected are therefore advised to book calibrations early as there is bound to be a rush during late December.

The weight limit and whatever it says on the V5 are the deciding factors.

It's a stupid and irrelevant law, which would be ignored if it were enforced with any intelligence.

Basically it always *was* ignored untill technology enabled greed and controll freakery to make it a money spinner!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"