Safe Speed Forums

Apparently this stretch of the A470 between Brecon and Merthyr is Britain's most dangerous road.



10 people have lost their lives here in the last 3 years in road 'accidents' over a stretch less than half a mile in length. Misjudged overtaking and "losing control" are the main factors.

Superficially, it looks like an attractive stretch of NSL road to put your foot down.

So what could be done to improve its safety record?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

You are right. On the face of it, it looks perfectly OK.

What don't we know?

Must be the road signs in Welsh. I can't see the bend signed. The slight curve visible in the distance can't be it.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Perhaps that dip in the middle traps cold air and becomes more slippery than the lead-in?
Camber difficulties with the road?
Simple lack of judgement by drivers who are deceived by the curves and dip and attempt to take it at too high a speed?

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

i did not know this was Britain's most dangerous. I love this bit of road and enjoy it as much as I can.

The weather can change quite dramatically in this area, the surrounding hills and mountains combined with a number of reservoirs can seem to generate a very localised micro climate, although I've generally only noticed this when walking, at road level it's seems to be fairly consistent along it's length.

I'd be interested to know how many of those who died were bikers, they also like this bit of road and they are out in force whenever the sun shines, quite often at some breathtaking speeds, combine this with a large number of dawdlers taking in the view and turning into\out of car parks that litter the road and I think we could have a lethal combination.

Edit: Sorry missed the bit about the 1/2 mile - not sure then I don't recognise the photo specifically so it's probably past the Storey Arms and I think possibly looking towards Merthyr from the Brecon direction. I will print photo and look out the next time I'm up there (probably within the month - in fact a month today weather permitting )

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It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

That is one of the most beautiful roads I've ever riden. It's almost perfect.

Nothing wrong with the road - must be crap drivers.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Its only made dangerous by stupid driving.

Unless it actually does throw people off it by warping, bucking and tipping as you travel along it; if it did then you could call it dangerous.

So are you suggesting that the inherent risks of all roads are equal, but on some the stupidity fairy waves her wand over motorists?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Measure it again in three years' time?

[Regular readers will realise that I'm referring to 'RTTM'.]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Unless they reduce the limit to 50mph based on the 'evidence'. That will, almost certainly, increase the danger on this wonderful stretch of biking bliss.

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It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

I suspect it may have a lot to do with the local "yoof" around here. They have a tendency to drive like idiots just like everywhere else (there was a fairly spectaclar crash outside my house last night which demolished my neighbours wall, and the cheeky sod asked me to give him a tow home before the police arrive as he had no insurance), but you don't have to travel far to end up on a road like this for which they are inadequately prepared.

This is exactly correct! There are no dangerous roads, only dangerous driving. A fact that seems to elude most scameraships

However I have to agree, I can't immediatley see why this road would cause drivers to misjudge overtakes etc. Perhaps it is prone to fog?

Or maybe the greenery at the side of the road is allowed to overgrow sufficiently to obscure forward vision.

Hmnn!

I'm torn on this one.

Whilst I accept the principle that, for a "perfect" driver there would be no such thing as a dangerous road. I have to accept that no driver is perfect.

As drivers we are always (or at least we should be) matching our driving style to the road conditions in order to make a reasonable balance between safety and making good progress.

As Weep points out. the only *safe* car is a stationary one! Unfortunatly, in this state it would be making no progress at all. OTOH somebody blatting down a single track road at the limits of adhesion may be making good progress but he is also, basically, a dead man driving (along with whoever he inevitably ends up hitting)

Somewhere between these two extreems there lies a optimal point where safety and progress are balanced at a reasonable level. (Unfortunatly, diferent people have diferent views about where the *reasonable* point is, but that is for a diferent discussion)

part of the process of deriving this point is the driver "reading" the road ahead for potential hazards (both moving and stationary)

To my mind a "Dangerous" road is one where a *competant* driver is mislead by his observations into believing that he can travel faster (or perform potentially hazardous manouvers such as overtaking) than this optimal point. A "Safe" road is where he is mislead into driving slower (or avoiding hazardous manouvers) than this optimal point.

(This is where the "sight line barriers" mentioned elsewhere at roundabouts come in, they are there to make the road look more dangerous than it actually is)

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

If I had to hazard a guess based on the picture and information so far, I'd say driver A has been held up by driver B for a couple of miles or so, and sees the view we see in the picture.
Driver A decides "That's not a bend, it's a curve, and I can use the down hill to accelerate quickly and pass driver B before anyone coming the other way gets close."
Meanwhile, driver C coming the other way decides to progress down the hill at a good safe speed for the bend/curve ahead - which looks gentle, and should stand 60mph no problem.

However, driver B decides that he too can make good progres in the view ahead, and driver A finds he is taking longer to pass than he intended - but hopes driver B will ease off a little when he sees driver C coming towards him, because if he (A) lifts off, he loses momentum - it's not like driver B was making quick progress before!
C thinks I hope that idiot pulls in before we meet, or I'll have to brake!
B thinks A is an idiot - but why should I slow down for him - I'm in the right...C fails to moderate his speed, soon enough
Suddenly....BANG

And are any of the drivers wiser as to who CAUSED the collision?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Its a great road,

I would suggest that what makes it 'dangerous' is its proximity to merthry and the pikey valley commandos

If lots of people keep making similar mistakes on the same stretch of road then there probably IS something wrong with the road. It could be that a particular bend winds up and catches drivers out, it could be camber problems, it could be hidden junctions etc. In the end you can always blame the driver but that doesn't mean we should ignore the road because even the most advanced and careful driver can make a mistake.

LOL. I have a good friend from Merthyr, but so long as you leave him out of it, you are absolutely correct. I was avoiding going quite that far in my earlier post.

Looking at the image, I would reckon that the biggest problem was the 'ribby' tarmac (lateral lines in the road surface in the image foreground), also the lie of the land suggests that the corners are banked but, comparing them to the water surface, they are fairly flat and there appears to be a bridge rise on the entry to the bend indicated by 'arafwch nawr'. The metalling is embedded stone-chip which can become highly-polished after only a few years and the darkness of the surface implies a goodly layer of diesel-dirt which will become slick if damp (probably most of the time, courtesy of the reservoir).
When I first saw this image, it put me in mind of the Llyn Padarn (Llanberis Pass) section of the A5, just past Betws-Y-Coed, heading coastward, which is another road that will claim the unwary or talent-free driver/rider...

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Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

6 up in a saxo, quick burn up the 470, thrill the pants off the girls then nature takes its course......unless the bend does!

I'm from west wales and theres a collection of similarly 'dangerous' roads that seem to be particularly so for young farmers and carmarthen cowboys.

I'm not sure theres much mystery here.

1st thing they could do is to raise the sign on the left so as drivers could see past the bloody thing from further back, they could also do with giving the grass verge a decent trim back to the left, and tthe last thing would be to make all boyos wear blinkers while they're driving so as not to be distracted by all the lovely sheep wandering around.

From where the photo is taken it looks good visibility for a fair distance.

Looks like there is a lay-by the other side of the water, so may be people looking at traffic on the road but not that there could be vehicles about to pull out of the lay-by.

It also looks like that after the water there are some trees (after the water but before the lay-by) that will then obscure the view further up the road once you've dropped down towards the water, which I presume is the reason for the signs.