Safe Speed Forums

Sadly it is true. But it's when you take into account that France doubled its number of traffic officers and France, Germany, Siwitzerland and Italy have all tightened up their driving tests to the extent that they roughly resemble our IAM test with a lot more emphasis on those COAST skills




Ah.,.. but if we get a report of such strays - especially on the motorways or fast dual and fast .. flowing .. but busy trunk roads - then we have to contact the owner of the animals and then go help remove them from the danger zone.

Depends where you live. The North East down to North Yorkshire and the High Peak tend to allow their sheep to graze and wander. The Council and Borough Highways Agencies have then an obligation to place warning triangles so as to alert as to the potential danger. You must have noticed them if you have driven in these areas I do see these signs when I visit the Mad Cats in Cumbria too





No .. I do not think so, I think he is trying to say that on a motorway - the safest speed is actually the one at which the traffic is flowing freely .. uniformed and well spaced out distances. Calm and pleasant. A 40-50 mph in L3 disrupts this flow and is a sign of an inconsiderate driver . just as much as th one appraoching the ton and flashing his lights and having a right raging bull approach to his style of driving

We would be having words with each type. Outcomes of our little chats would not be quite the same though

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Weepej, Clearly you and I have different ideas about the definition of "cause". That's fine by me, but I wouldn't mind an answer to my question, rather than a (completely unsubstantiated) suggestion that if we are falling behind in the EU stats, it is because some people (can't think who you might have been refering to?!) think that a sheep could cause a crash!

70 mph is safe with a caravan assuming the driver is competant, 120mph is probably safe too, in fact any speed that the complete outfit (including driver) is in control is probably safe. However have you seen the way that some drivers tow? Like any aspect of driving, experiance is earned over time, the occasional weekend tow by some (obviously not you) drivers sugests that a slower limit is not a bad idea.



So, you have done a lot of towing, most caravanners dont seem to have your level of experiance.

I dont know if you are "right" or "wrong", I have never said I am "right", I believe that for someone to think they are "right" is dangerous as it pre-supposes that they know everything (otherwise how do they know when they are "wrong"?) and quite plainly it is impossible to know everything.



Its common sense, why would anybody think otherwise? Have I somehow upset you?



You seem a little worked up here but guess what? Apart from the flashing of lights, I agree with you on this. Spooky or what?



Oh dear, I do seem to have upset you.

As I said in an earlier thread, I wont save as much fuel by travelling on roads where I have to stop/start slowdown/accelerate and in addition my journey times will be longer, so I will continue to use the motorways.

I just hope that I dont find some idiot slamming into the back of me whilst towing their caravan on cruise control at 80, not everybody is as good a driver as you.

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Nick

its not crazy, its a pain in the arse, especially when there are only 2 lanes and we get honked at for causing congestion by overtaking. its a truck so it just nip past someone clogging up the inside lane

my car is 10 years old and it managed to get better fuel consumption than the official figures by sitting at 60 on the motorway which is fast enough to not be a pain in the arse yet not so fast that others cant overtake if they want to

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Richie

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Mate - we disagree at times - this time you're spot on - 70 on a motorway is the MINIMUM ---wish I could find a way to zap HGV limiters to dust - (and no doubt I'd be proclaimed Saint David by the heavy mob)

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Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Motorways are home to all types of vehicles from mobile cranes to Pagani Zondas, who travel at speeds - generally - between 40 and 80+.

Dealing with the speed differentials, which - for me - is the primary cause of M-Way accidents, is simplistic: observe what's going on around you. Lift your vision. Look as far ahead as possible. Anticipate........hang on.........

C
O
A
S
T

Yes. That's the one.

COAST principles. The cornerstone of every successfully completed journey.

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Simon

We always come back to COAST values.

By the way - "cruise control" ist only a good idea in SPECS zones where it matter not to blip over lolly. at the lower speed enforced.

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A couple of points I'd like to direct at the OP.

1) Your speedo overreads. All car speedos do, typically by about 10%. So when you think you're doing 50, you're likely only doing 47.

2) 50 is unlikely to be the most fuel-efficient speed, it's typically somewhere around 55-60 though it can vary from car to car.

If you just match speed with the lorry in front of you then you'll save everyone else on the road a whole lot of aggro (and fuel!) and it won't cost you any more in increased fuel consumption. It might even save you a few pence. I know times are hard and everyone needs to save what they can, but please have consideration for others while doing so.

Another bonus to matching speeds with a lorry is they can see much further ahead than you and the vast majority of them are better drivers than you (or me) if there is something going on up ahead they will take action much sooner and their action will be very smooth and efficient saving them fuel compared to taking a harsher action later on.

You'll still need to watch out for idiots not expecting a car in L1 and deciding that the gap between two lorries must obviously be empty so now it's safe to join/exit. Not even a flashing neon sign will prevent that.

Clearly...you have never towed one........

Hey, no-one ever said that you had to agree with every thing I said... I'll will still respect you in the morning just the same..

But Scanny, your car then is 4 mph faster than the limiters fitted to the lorries! 50mph as quoted earlier is 6mph less! Now it doesn't sound like much does it? But just reduce your speed by that much and see the difference!

Generally, you will get lane 1 at 60-ish mph, lane 2 at 70mph, and lane 3 at 80 mph....when you compare that with our European counterparts we're pretty slow...

In fact. No-one is slower!

i am aware of the difference but 4mph faster is still not causing trucks to overtake me. i do have to overtake them but in the car i can accelerate if i need to (depending on traffic density) but a truck wouldnt have that option if i was the reason it had to overtake me. there are other factors concerning the speed i cruise at too for example time of day. if its busy i tend to go with the flow of traffic. if its quiet (which is normally the case as a night worker) then i can sit at 60 without causing problems for anyone and i can enjoy a relaxed drive (although constantly wondering if the car will complete the journey isnt very relaxing) which i do prefer

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Richie

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Not quite so clear it seems, I have been towing an Abbey Vogue GTS 416 for the last 6 years (not constantly of course before you ask).

My comment was based on the poor standard of driving often seen by caravans being towed, I cant help feeling that if caravans could be towed at 70mph then crashes would increase, the only test you need to take to tow a caravan (well for oldies like me) is the car test. Caravans are a special case and especially so when incorrectly loaded, a solo car is bearly affected by crosswinds (early Sierras excepted) or the airflow round an HGV but a caravan is and without a stabaliser (yes I do use one) the faster it is going then the easier it is to get into trouble.


As an aside, yesterday I returned from a 760 mile round trip to Koln driving in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany, the standards of lane disipline and obervations seemed much higher there than here and traffic seemed to flow at whatever speed they chose with no problems. Observation seems the key word.

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Nick

Familyman.... The most dangerous "fad" at the moment is the pressure to "drive a 4 x 4" if you want to Tow! Especially the short wheelbase models when the "tail wags the dog!". The motoring Mags do us no service when they recommend the: "Tow Car of the Year!" award....and you will frequently find that accidents with caravans involve Short wheelbased vehicles of a 4 x 4 type.

What you need is a 2 litre plus, large, long wheel based, rear wheel drive, short "rear axle to hitch" measurement car.....

A little bit of education, thought and less attention to the so called "caravan" mags who have "sponsors" to please would go a long way. If you have towed in Europe as I have done, how many Germans have you seen towing a LONG CARAVAN with a little short wheeled toy? Or did they have a LONG WHEEL BASED MERC?

Is it the 4x4 that's the issue, or the short wheelbase. I can see how towing with something like a Vitara would be daft, but something like a Legacy or a Shogun, is there anything wrong with those?

Draco

I have towed with 4 different cars, many years back (25 or so) I uesd a 1.6 Capri (very short rear overhang) and a 2.0 auto Manta Coupe. More recently with my Abbey I have used a 98 Zantia 1.9 TD estate (hydraulic rear suspension made it very stable) and now use a 2001 1.9 td auto Galaxy (spot the tranformation into "family man")

I cant disagree with your observations on tow cars, I would only add that the heavier the better.

As regards to caravans in Germany, on Monday I saw a reasonably sized van being pulled by a mini-bus type car (VW I think) doing around 70 with no drama. I dont disagree that caravans can be towed safely at speed, just as I dont think that 150+ is automatically unsafe for a solo car, but I have seen enough snaking caravans on UK motorways to make me worried about inexperianced drivers towing at speed.

Last night on a repeat of a motorway cop show, we were shown a 4x4 (Kia I think) that had been rolled after the caravan it was pulling had a blow out. Wrong car? bad loading? poor tyres? who knows but when you have around 1ton out of control and hooked onto the back of a car, it can really only go one way.

I think the American 5th wheel trailers attached to the bed of a pick-up are probably one of the best solutions for towing.

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Nick

Also raises issues about roadworthiness too. Lots of trailers suffer mechanical failures (tyres, brakes, whelbearings etc) because there is no compulsory MOT scheme for trailers. I wouldn't mind betting that at least some of the accidents we see involving trailers are down to poor maintenance / design as well as poor loading / driving/ tow vehicle selection.

The cause was the lack of observation of potential danger around the bend, and not driving safely enough - were this to be a real 'accident'.

Any driver going at a rate less than the optimal speed for the conditions will cause all sorts of 'other driver behaviours'. it is not ideal no matter how much fuel you save, as it is unexpected behaviour.
I would hazard a guess too that by the tie you have gone up hill at 50 and down hill at 50 that in fact you would have used less fuel at 70. I am only sorry that I haven't the quick maths calculations to work this out - and I haven't the time right now (sorry).
As suggested you will have everyone (almost) wish to pass you so that will create all sorts of additional driver reactions to your one action.
On a probability scale I would suggest that even were you to save a little fuel, the additional hazard that you have created by your action, is likely to be far less safe for you and all the drivers around you. The main behaviours effected are frustration and unpredictable action.
I woudl also suggest that you would get bored and have the small potential to drift in your lane ...
It would take more concentration to drive at a speed lower that the prevailing condition dictate. Done regularly too gives you less experience at the faster speed and over a long time would render you, so less experienced at the faster speed, you would be less capable at coping with the faster traffic.

I had to travel at 40mph on the motorway once for about 20 miles before a could 'shake' a 'tagger on' and that was extremely nerve racking, with everything overtaking (us). (Without going into it all.)
The US of course has a 55mph limit but they have big wide and separated roads in many States, but an 8hr journey there once at 55mph so co very boring it was hard to stay awake.

But what drives this question ? Is it 'just' fuel economy ? If this is so, then I might consider changing my car for different one that obtained a higher mph to enable me to retain an approx 65-70 ability at good fuel economy but to be far safer !

Have you noticed that traffic often travels in small 'groups' when you stick at a certain speed with 'a flow' of traffic that passes through? This faster traffic 'may well' have great fuel economy too' as they use less throttle to retain a slightly higher speed (than the bulk traffic flow), and adjust less frequently and less often ...

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On the subject of towing car choice, I saw a top-down MGB towing a large modern caravan yesterday!

If this was in responce to the caravan accident in my earlier post, then the reason given was a tyre blow-out on the caravan.

OK, but what is optimal?, the motorway rules say you may not stop and you may not exceed 70, except where a lower limit is shown. If optimal is dependant on the drivers own judgement then it will still give a range of speeds. Some may think 80 is OK in the rain, others 60.

When I learnt to drive, I was told to "expect the unexpected" and to assume all other motorists were out to kill me, this was especially true when I sat my bike test. When I drive down the motorway (at whatever speed) I look for the unexpected, vehicles driving fast or slow, vehicles behaving erratically, vehicles catching up with slower traffic. You seem to sugest that to expect others to concentrate on thier own driving and adapt their driving to their surroundings is somehow wrong and that everybody should simply join the "pack"


No problem with your time for calculations, I can only offer up this real word example.

Two journeys in the same car (1.9 td auto Galaxy) mostly motorway using cruise control:-
1) 70mph, computer showed average 46mpg
2) 50mph, computer showed average 55mpg

Now even assuming the figures are not 100% accurate, they are comparable.

Just like when you catch up with a speed limited truck then? Once again you seem to be saying that any danger comes from bad driving by other motorists

You can sugest it but I would strongly refute it. I would also argue that by keeping up with all the other traffic, you are more likely to start driving on auto pilot and be more likely to drift out of lane as your concentration drops. By driving at a speed you choose (whether that be faster or slower than 70 you are not simply following the car in front and thereore need more concentration not less.

I feel that main experiance that improves motorway driving is observation and anticipation of others actions. I really cant agree that by driving at 50 I would loose the ability to drive at 70, indeed I am more used to dealing with fast traffic as I experiance it more often.

I too would find 40 a bit of a pain, BTW, the US also has limits of 65 and 75 depending on which State you are in.

You may have missed my earlier posts, but I dont think a small economical car would be very safe coupled up to a 1,213kg (unladen) caravan.

I dont see that travelling in a "pack" aids safety, I would imagine that it is far simpler to loose concentration and simply follow-the-leader.



All the arguments against driving slowly on motorways seem to be based on other drivers not concentrating, are we not trying to let the cart lead the horse?

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Nick