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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 00:38 
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IOSH Website wrote:
MPs back work driving assessments
Posted Wed, 14 Jan 2009

Fatal collisions by people driving as part of their job not only result in a tragic loss of life but also cost the UK more than £1.6 billion in 2007, it has been revealed.

To combat this, a road safety initiative from the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) aimed at identifying aspects of an individual's driving that need development has received cross-party support from MPs.

As part of the launch, MPs will be completing the IAM Driver Risk Management programme to set an example for businesses of all sizes on how to manage the risks associated with employees driving for work.

IAM fleet managing director Seb Goldin said: "Around a third of all road accidents involve people driving for work, and for every death there is an associated cost to the economy which can total billions of pounds each year. This is not acceptable and is why we are asking MPs to take the lead in reducing the alarming road death rate."

MPs will conduct an IAM online risk assessment of their driving at the launch event. From this, a risk rating will determine further training needs - ranging from e-learning to personal on-road lessons to improve driving skills.

Copyright © Press Association 2009



Any thoughts here from members who drive as part of thier job? What sort of view is taken by your employer with regards driving?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 01:32 
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Once again, the government shows it's total lack of knowledge about road safety. As with the ",speed kills" madness where they say that speed accounts from between 3% and 28% of road deaths (depending on which set of figures are handy at the time) they are not going out to a cure for the majority of road deaths but a minority.

Business drivers, I would guess, account for at least 50% of the vehicles on the roads during the daytime and when you consider that the average business driver covers at least twice the mileage of the average driver then 30% isn't a very high figure, but instead of curing the main factor, i.e the other 70%, they are targeting the wrong group. Not because it will make a big difference but because they are the "easiest" group to target and it gives "joe public" the impression that they are doing "something" about road casualties. No doubt one of the governments' main ideas will be to restrict the speed of all company vehicles because as we all "know", "speed" is the "Main" factor in any accident.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 07:46 
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graball wrote:
Once again, the government shows it's total lack of knowledge about road safety. As with the ",speed kills" madness where they say that speed accounts from between 3% and 28% of road deaths (depending on which set of figures are handy at the time) they are not going out to a cure for the majority of road deaths but a minority.

Business drivers, I would guess, account for at least 50% of the vehicles on the roads during the daytime and when you consider that the average business driver covers at least twice the mileage of the average driver then 30% isn't a very high figure, but instead of curing the main factor, i.e the other 70%, they are targeting the wrong group. Not because it will make a big difference but because they are the "easiest" group to target and it gives "joe public" the impression that they are doing "something" about road casualties. No doubt one of the governments' main ideas will be to restrict the speed of all company vehicles because as we all "know", "speed" is the "Main" factor in any accident.


That may or may not be true - I prefer to base my decisions on facts rather than guesses. But, in attempting to improve any endeavour, whether it be road safety or domestic spending , it surely makes sense to start with the easiest improvement even if it doesn't give the largest return in absolute terms.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 09:30 
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Isn't that EXACTLY why speed cameras DON'T save lives? The are the easiest target but a pointless exercise.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 09:45 
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Oooo!

Will I be able to dismiss someone whose driving is, I believe, unsatisfactory? Will I have to pay for them to receive training or will the government pay for it on the grounds that "one life saved ..."? (I know the answer to this already.)

Box ticking tosh. There is already a duty on employers to look after the health, welfare and safety of employees. This additional stuff is not required.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:01 
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I certainly can't see it reducing casualty figures by any noticable amount.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:56 
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malcolmw wrote:
Oooo!

Will I be able to dismiss someone whose driving is, I believe, unsatisfactory? Will I have to pay for them to receive training or will the government pay for it on the grounds that "one life saved ..."? (I know the answer to this already.)

Box ticking tosh. There is already a duty on employers to look after the health, welfare and safety of employees. This additional stuff is not required.


Malcolm, I don't know how much driving your employees do, but do you give them extra training for driving your vehicles or think that as long as they have a clean(ish) driving licence it is enough?

I would be more than happy to have extra courses to use our company vehicles. I'm not supposed to drive our industrial fork lift without the ticket, but I can drive a 24 tonne tractor and trailer on a car licence.

Personally I'd think it better for employers to pre-empt any legislation by getting employees extra training on company vehicles before HM Government has a crack down.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:19 
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I have to do a lot of driving for my job and personally I would have no problem with my employer providing additional good quality training.

The difference between "private" driving and "company" driving is that when driving for the company I rarely get to choose when and where I have to go. I am often on roads I have rarely or never used before and that requires better observation than driving on roads I know well. One example is that you need to read the signs to know which lane to be in, whereas you would not have to on a road you know. Many "private" drivers only have this problem once a year on holiday, I do it several time a week sometimes.

One of the Safe Speed recommendations has always been training before enforcement, so I'm slightly surprised at the tone of some of the initial replies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:35 
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Bt has been running this program, The question is has it worked. however any result could be confused by the fact they have installed limiters and gps tracking in many vans

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 14:55 
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I'm all for companies assessing/training their drivers (the last driving job that I had, I had a test/assessment as part of the interview). What I am saying is the government are targeting the wrong group (yet again).

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 15:13 
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I think if you look at the large amount of people who are involved in rta's during their work time you may change your mind.
The employer has a legal obligation to risk assess what their employees do. They also have an obligation to minimise the risk to others from their employees and the work they do.
Since every truck and van involved in an accident will be a work-related accident I fail to see where you're coming from on this.
And speed is involved in every accident. As has been said before, if they ain't moving they ain't crashing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:30 
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The Govt's figures are 30% are caused by "business" vehicles but what about the other 70%? Mile for mile people who drive for "business" are some of the safest on the roads (as per the white van man debate a few days ago). If you took A/vkms for business drivers against domestic drivers I reckon that that 30% figure would come down to 10%. So WHY are the government targeting this small percentage........ as "box ticking" exercise to "reduce deaths "?
It's just like saying "stop speeding and cut road deaths"...it hasn't worked. Instead of educating the other 70% of "numpties" they are targeting some of the safest drivers on the road.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:54 
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We always say that passing your test is just the first step to "learing to drive" and that experience is the biggest improver of skills. Business drivers account for more mileage than private motorists and thus, presumably, are the most skilled and experienced.

Why then, should the Government want to impose more controls on this group rather than the more inexperienced sector?

In response to AdamL, yes, our fork truck and specialist vehicle drivers receive appropriate training and certification. We do not send our company car drivers on additional driving courses or give them a "driving test" on appointment. We inspect driving licences regularly. I am sure that this is the position in the vast majority of companies.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:09 
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Quote:
Why then, should the Government want to impose more controls on this group rather than the more inexperienced sector?



....Easier to target? No other reason really!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:27 
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graball wrote:
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Why then, should the Government want to impose more controls on this group rather than the more inexperienced sector?



....Easier to target? No other reason really!


I don't think we have enough information about the figures to know the truth. Insurance premiums for business use are much higher than for private use so the insurance companies must believe that the chance of a business vehicle crashing is higher. We don't know what proportion of the total number of journeys or the total distance is by business vehicles so we don't know whether the 30% is over or under represented in the statistics. The 30% involves a business vehicle but each of those could also involve a private vehicle so it could be that nearly 100% of crashes involve a private vehicle. As I said, we don't have enough information.

I still believe that better training of business drivers would not be a bad thing. The alternative might be that "they" suggest speed limiters on all business vehicles even though business vehicles may not cause the crashes they are involved in.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:29 
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I have to admit that targeting occupational drivers may be of benefit, apart from the additional training aspect which can only be of benefit, it also helps concentrate employers - I've dealt with many companies in my H&S role about driver trainig and a better awarenes of occ driving, one had called me in after a long run of accidents - My initial response was that the workload and geographic area was unrealistic even if the driver could get everywhere at top legal speeds, let alone with realistic speeds accounting for traffic etc.

Previously as far as companies go occ driving often isn't seen as a employers H&S duty, more a problem of the driver's responsibility.

In addition to assesment of drivers and training, I think that more emphasis should be placed on employers taking a more realistic demand on occ drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:37 
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I agree that firms often put unrealistic targets on occ drivers...even in the late seventies when there were no speed cameras, I was having to drive quite fast to achieve targets and friends who still work for parcelforce have to keep to a "fast pace" but I don't believe that putting speed limiters on business vehicles is going to reduce the casualty rate much.If the government are serious about reducing casualty figures they should concentrate on the other 70%. I'm not saying this with any bias because I no longer work for a company so it doesn't affect me, but I still drive a high mileage daily and don't feel unsafe around commercial vehicles but I am "scared shitless" of the little old ladies pottering down to the shops or mothers on the school run.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 19:46 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
I have to admit that targeting occupational drivers may be of benefit, apart from the additional training aspect which can only be of benefit, it also helps concentrate employers - I've dealt with many companies in my H&S role about driver trainig and a better awarenes of occ driving, one had called me in after a long run of accidents - My initial response was that the workload and geographic area was unrealistic even if the driver could get everywhere at top legal speeds, let alone with realistic speeds accounting for traffic etc.

Previously as far as companies go occ driving often isn't seen as a employers H&S duty, more a problem of the driver's responsibility.

In addition to assesment of drivers and training, I think that more emphasis should be placed on employers taking a more realistic demand on occ drivers.

As far as I can see, the suggested scheme is nothing to do with assessing employers organisational systems for directing their drivers (which is what you diagnosed in the example which you give). It's all to do with assessing the driver's capability by the IAM.

However, I agree with you last point that employers should be realistic about what they ask staff to do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 20:08 
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malcolmw wrote:
As far as I can see, the suggested scheme is nothing to do with assessing employers organisational systems for directing their drivers (which is what you diagnosed in the example which you give). It's all to do with assessing the driver's capability by the IAM.

However, I agree with you last point that employers should be realistic about what they ask staff to do.

Yes, improving systems and procedures for directing drivers is likely to make more difference than assessing their capabilities, to be honest.

Too many employers still do not regard driving as a core part of the work task when undertaken by people not employed specifically as drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 20:25 
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PeterE wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
As far as I can see, the suggested scheme is nothing to do with assessing employers organisational systems for directing their drivers (which is what you diagnosed in the example which you give). It's all to do with assessing the driver's capability by the IAM.

However, I agree with you last point that employers should be realistic about what they ask staff to do.

Yes, improving systems and procedures for directing drivers is likely to make more difference than assessing their capabilities, to be honest.

Too many employers still do not regard driving as a core part of the work task when undertaken by people not employed specifically as drivers.


There must be plenty of company car drivers that do near 1,000 hours per year driving, which will be a significant part of their working day/week/year. While they are not actually selling or doing what they are paid for, the employer might be able to save quite an amount of money if the drivers were driving smoother, wearing the car less and using less juice and they would be less stressed too,might even cover ground quicker and crash less with a bit of training. 30,000 miles a year is £15 in a mid range Mondeo, you wouldn't need to save much to get your few days worth of training back.

Edited twice, 'coz I'm a div...


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