Safe Speed Forums

I meant the former. But the concept of "right of way" doesn't exist in normal pedestrian intercourse. We let people join the traffic in the pavement without hesitation because that is a neighbourly thing to do. But once the average person gets in a car he forgets all such normal decent behaviour. It is his "right of way" and sod anyone who wishes to deny him that right. They are not worthy of a second thought,.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Do you still not see the difference between flowing, parallel traffic and a serial queue?

Drivers do let traffic join when on a road (like I've already said); those on foot never let others walk in on a queue - unless you do? Oddly enough, many drivers so just that (allow others to jump a queue), more so than people on foot. Case in point: 'merge in turn'.

So if someone isn't inviting you in then they are inherently preventing you? Your usage of the term 'prevent' is very suspect.....

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Pulling lines from two of your posts and ignoring for the moment any quantitative assumptions given I am going make similar ones

Driving can be, and I dare say often is for some people, a stressful activity and as such I believe it will put many drivers into an abnormal mental state. Some may become defensive, competitive or aggressive without being particularly conscious of the change or why it has occurred. To get to the point, I think driving puts many drivers into a state of mind that makes courtesy something that requires a more conscious act with the additional complication that few drivers are observing sufficiently in advance to make such acts something which can be seamlessly blended into their driving.



People pause to let someone through a door first, possibly in the opposite direction and may even open or hold the door.

Some people will let another with a couple of items in front at the checkout when they have a trolley full.

So sorry Steve I think your rebuttal is flawed in this respect, of course you would not expect everyone to let someone in front, however it does happen occasionally. Just as occasionally you get a driver that assists your overtake even if it is mainly truckers that do this not car drivers.

If you will both forgive me for being blunt it appears you are ending up in an argument due to syntax, absolutes, minutiae and possibly a certain bloody mindedness.

Edit - Yes maybe I should be careful of stone throwing, so sue me, all i would say is it takes one to know one

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

No apology needed. Whenever I try to argue with Steve he degenerates the debate to trivial details of "syntax, absolutes, minutiae" rather than addressing the substantive point. Which is why I am not continuing on this thread

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Sorry but I believe attention to this 'minutiae' can make or break an argument. Let me apply it here.....

I have never, ever seen this happen when waiting in any line, not even in a shopping queue. You may think it happens, but all that actually happens is that the person in front lets the person immediately behind them pass; they do not invite others (strangers) to join so bypassing them and a queue built up behind them. I hope you don't think that as mere minutiae (I believe it to be fundamental).

Would you both agree that invitations to let others into a queue (which is not the same as letting the person behind pass) is much more prevalent from drivers in a queue than from walkers in a queue?

The point of this is that DCB believe "most" forget the normal courtesies. I don't doubt that some do and that others never give any such consideration anyway (have you never seen people trying to jump queues - or just not pay?), but credulity is stretched when it is claimed that most suddenly do, especially when considering the (failed) comparisons given to support that view. crucially, nothing has been given that objectively (or substantively) supports that view.

I don't doubt that I'm tenacious and maybe just a little bit blunt but I usually reserve that for those less than sincere.
I think it is more likely that some forget the normal courtesies when behind their keyboard (there is only one post in this sub-thread that didn't address the substantive point and risked degenerating the debate).

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

dcb's analogy doesn't really work, does it?

I'd be a lot more angry if stuck walking behind a slow pedestrian in a long narrow alley who wouldn't let me pass by for ten minutes than ten minutes behind a slow car.

The former has never happened; if it did I'd have words, and probably simply push past the pedestrian if they didn't let me by, whereas the latter happens all the time. I would be surprised if most people would not start asking to get by after a few minutes stuck in a narrow alley behind someone slow if not admitted, whereas most people don't start flashing and indicating when stuck behind someone slower, unless they're being a complete arse, and even then some just put up with it.



So actually it's the slow drivers who forget normal courtesies which they would normal exhibit on foot.

Yes, I always find that if I am walking behind slower elderly people they will always get out of the way and appologise, even if I am in no hurry myself.

(It always amazes me how many groups will stand blocking a supermarket aisle , with their trollies parked at all angles, while having a chat though....)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

[quote=Johnnytheboy]
I'd be a lot more angry if stuck walking behind a slow pedestrian in a long narrow alley who wouldn't let me pass by for ten minutes than ten minutes behind a slow car. The former has never happened;[/quote]



Surely this supports my thesis that people behaviour when walking is much better than their behaviour when driving

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

People in a hurry on foot can be just as bad as some car drivers (although clearly not as dangerous).

I just think that when some people get in a car their brain automatically tells them they are in a hurry; it's like they're going quite fast and some far flung part of their psyche trips and says, "you're going fast, you must be running after something or away from something therefore forget everything else like decency and reason and concentrate on moving forward as fast as you possibly can".

Err.. when you are walking - you are "socialising". Making eye contact.. saying "excuse me and thank you" (Well I do . Guess me Mam borught me up right then!

In a car - you are within a steel chassis and thus "removed" .. similarly on a bicycle - you are moving more quickly and thus more intent on gettng from A to B than when "window shopping and passing the idle time of day to fellow folk"

We are back to the discussion we had back in 2004 where we all agreed that we need to address "good manners and social graces" and bring them back into our lives as constant By the way - C of COAST does stand for "CONSIDERATION and COURTESY" Tis why I like the acronym.. It's so versatile

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Er, it also stands for CARNAGE

I do that when I'm driving/cycling too, 'cept there's no way of saying excuse me I guess.

That wasn't what I has an issue with. Like I said, I don't doubt some do forget the normal courtesies (I bet the slow elderly drivers don't pull in to let other drivers pass); my issue was with the "most" drivers do.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

It also stands for CARING. I'm sure we all could find many words beginning with C.

I think IG's point was what the first letter of the important driving acronym COAST stands for.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I assumed you meant the people in a hurry were better behaved when walking, not the slow people. I must have misread one of your earlier posts.


By the way, weren't you not continuing on this thread?

I see many examples of courtesy when driving, letting other drivers into queues, allowing them to turn across your path, waving them through at chicanes, and allowing pedestrians to cross at junctions. I take the attitude of "do as you would be done by" when driving and it seems that a lot of other drivers do too.

Only last night, when closing on a slower vehicle in Lane 1 on the motorway, I was flashed out by an approaching driver in Lane 2, someone who obviously had both good manners and observational sense

In fact it's quite rare I witness discourteous behaviour by other drivers.

The idea that people leave good manners behind when they get behind the wheel of a car is utter rot, in my view.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

\Perhaps on its own ,.. but not when within C_C_O _ A_A S_T which is HOW we MARK the DIS And SAC across the UK whereby 1=super and 5="£needs urgent asistance" per our own criteria, We seldom get 4-5 scores by the way on DIS and our SAC version seems to reflect the same/ Oddly all candidates would pass their L-test. We are teaching them a needed revision and enhanced skills on top. We hope we give value for money on these offers as they are a lot cheaper than 5 years of insurance risk loadings here. :popcornL


wEEPY .. YOU cannot put CARNAGE in the acroonym as it just don''t work with the other headings of Observation.. .. and Anticipation based on "what oberved" in turn linked to PLAN as in much space and time we allow to diffuse the danger.


You can try .to dent COAST but you are up against bullet and bomb proof material of good practice and basic common sense

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

\peter - you are quite right.


No one changes spots or colours. which is why a court will and can recgonise a potentially lethal road user and penalty point or ban on a "ghost licence"

I am not making this up, i post reality and some cases appear to prove my warnings as posted a while back before a high profile court case backed me up here

If you prove inept on a bike - courts can and will conclude "inept in a car"



But generally .. a person remains polite or rude however they decide to live their life. Mist are polite... a small percentage are rude. and surprisngly a lower percentage can be held to be downright and unrdeemablly crminal . and these are the long term lifers we cop and bang to rights in the real worold out there. Or so I trust .. hope ..here.. as we hope we keep folk safe here.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Well. If the cap fits........

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Wenlock Edge was umbered. And bright was Abdon Burf. And warm, beneath them, slumbered the smooth, green miles of turf

kiteless You seem nice and a virtual pal Can we have a Saturday toast here?


weepy and me? we understand and respect each other. We agree on most tings.. disagree on others and still able tp chat and respect each other. which is as life is. Agree to disagree and agree to remain a pal.

I think and trust he banters with me in good will and I trust he sees my replies in the same good will ,. I'd be quite mortified if I though I offend anyone or cause them distress,

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.