Safe Speed Forums

Some guy on another forum I frequent has just gotten 6 CCTV issued tickets through the post for violating this part-time no right turn sign every day in one week.



Google Street View

Pretty sure this is an illegal sign unless accompanied by the more well known round one with the red border, yes/no?

Anyone got a handy link to the signing regulations.

Im not sure I can see which road it refers to anyway. It seems rather a long way back from the junction in the distance.

Having said that, is that sign in the distance one of those venetian blind jobs that is supposed to open and close depending on whether the restriction is in force or not.

If it wasnt working I imagine he would have a case.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

The main DfT site is found Here & try Regulatory Signs Pg 10 - for principal black border on white rules : here (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/gpg ... csigns.pdf) so a black border on white background is described as :
So - whether by itself is legal I am not absolutely sure - needs more research.
Traffic Signs & Meanings - here they have an Ask the Expert Section Here

The sign looks legal in first glance, any idea why he thought it was worth 'ignoring' ?
I assume it was placed after accidents and they are trying to prevent similar 'set up's' from occurring.
Is the sign legal in itself - if at night the light is not working then I would say not, but that must be thoroughly checked and verified by a legal expert. It needs more investigation to be 100% sure of all detail and all information prescribed to it.
If he wants to fight it I can contact Richard Bentley for him if he wants to give me his details.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

personally, if I was driving the road as a stranger, I doubt if I would notice the sign at a glance...every day for a week, now that's different. The box further along does look like one of those venetian signs mentioned (i've never seen one before though). Obviously if that is not working the legallity of it could be questioned.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Looks like an automatic sign to me.

Well he claims not to have seen the sign, as he was turning right onto Renwick Road, then immediately turning right again, part of an awesome new "rat run" he'd found to avoid a busy part of the A13, and thus not noticed it because it was so small.

I was under the impression that that little black and white sign would not create a valid restriction on it's own.

I guess the whole thing hinges on whether that sign at the end is a venetian sign, and if it were working or not. If it is such a sign then the little plate would be legal in that it's giving information as to when the venetian sign should be open, but I still don't think it creates an enforcible restriction on it's own.

Well apparently there are also barriers across the road that are supposed to close it at certain times. He is assuming that the sign should operate with the barriers, which wern't in operation.

Street view image of barriers

What a cock-eyed set-up! I've never seen anything as barmy as that in all my life.

I assume he means left out of Choats road then right?



There does not seem to be a similar restriction on turning left from the opposite direction so putting barriers up at certain times would make no sense. I do see our old friend the rising bollard.

The small sign originally posted in this thread is badly placed, it's only really visible to the Google camera because they are on the "wrong" side of the road, otherwise it would be obscured by the traffic lights.

Any legality of the tickets would hinge on the automated sign, 1. being a no right turn, 2. working at the time.

If he wants to use that road then I'd suggest he drives past the no right turn, does a U turn and turns left.

Ask the Council & Local Police Traffic Unit what the sign states.
Then find out if one has to be active for the other to be valid.
(sources ID'd below -DfT (I'd call or email them) - ..Pepipoo - Traffic Signs&Meanings- Ask their Expert may help - speak to Lawyers about the signs legality ... Do let us know how you are progressing) (Let me know about contacting R Bentley ...)

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

That's very interesting ... is there something that goes on down this road.
I would therefor assume that the Venetian blind sign is only active when the barrier is down then. The sign is there to stop other R Turning traffic at other times therefor it may well be 'valid' ...
Also interesting ... Can you find the best image from the google Campoint and direct us to it.
Do you know that for fact ? If the barrier for example operates at different times may invalidate that (I would have thought as he clearly was able to go right - without the barrier down).

Agreed. Unless there is a prior or later Right turn. (I haven't checked the layouts - nor know where he might have been going approximately of course.)

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

There is a "No Left Turn" rectangular sign (with same day/hour restrictions) when coming from the other direction, and a similar "automated sign" (which was not active when the StreetView image was taken).

I do agree with Oscar though - what a stupidly over-engineered solution that is bound to confuse drivers from ANY direction. I dread to think how many tens or evens hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent on information signs, (automated) order signs which are both continually illuminated during the day even when they are inactive, keep-left bollards, fencing, railings, road markings, temporary barriers, rising bollards, red and green lights to tell you when to proceed (in both directions), (permanently illuminated) signs telling you what you have to do to proceed, receivers (times 2) to detect a signal from a bus that is over 7 feet wide, transmitters (times the number of buses) to send that signal, multiple gates and barriers, one-way direction (tyre destroyer) plates in the roadway, CCTV to monitor the whole monstrosity and of course people employed to check the CCTV to catch people out (and sent the penalty charges several days after the infringement)

We could probably save billions of pounds (and help us get out of Flash's "Global recession") by sacking all the nutters who implement such schemes!!

mb

Not knowing the area I had a run up and down on Street View and couldn't see anything, though I think the London images are a few years old now anyway.

[edit] Ah, there it is, guess I wasn't looking properly this morning.

Anyway, what an eyesore. No doubt the result of locals demanding something be done about people using a road to get from one place to another, I hope some of them are regretting it now.

now if i'd driven through those barriers every day for a week.... i think i might have wondered what they were all about and kept my eyes peeled for further signage.
(the barriers look rather manual to me anyway)

Wait, so leaving aside the barriers and venetian sign relating to them (after all it's reasonable to assume that if they are open and the sign is blanked, it's ok to go through). You are saying that that little tiny plate creates a valid no right turn restriction and there is no need for the more well known round sign with a red border?

Seriously?

What is particularly galling is that given the obvious barriers and venetian sign, this is clearly a part-time restriction and there shouldn't be any need to look for further signage as the restriction is clearly not in force at this time.

The barriers are obviously manual but the rising bollards aren't, although one of them seems to be missing, leaving what looks to be enough space to get a car through.

Ah, looking again I think they are enforcing the width restriction.

What a mess. It's depressing enough to look at from 200 miles away, I can't imagine what it's like living there.