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 Post subject: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 07:58 
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On the BBC today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23334026

Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:24 
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Anyone planning on enforcing it ?
...no thought not. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 13:22 
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BBC News wrote:
Driving licences should be graduated, says RAC Foundation

Novice drivers could face four years of restrictions
Learner drivers in the UK should face a graduated system of licences to help reduce road deaths, says a report by the RAC Foundation.
The study suggests that hundreds of lives a year could be saved if such a system were adopted.
New drivers would face a four-year learning period during which they would be subject to restrictions.
The United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand already have graduated learning for drivers.

The RAC Foundation said such countries had seen a significant reduction in the number of young people being killed in accidents.
Deaths among 17- to 24-year-olds have fallen by up to 60%, and the number of overall casualties has fallen by up to 32%.
"Putting a firm number on casualty reduction is hard because of the pick-and-mix approach to graduated licensing," said Prof Stephen Glaister, director of the RAC Foundation.
"But the evidence suggests that a full package of measures could reduce fatalities by anything up to 60%," he said.

In the UK, one in five novice drivers has an accident within six months of passing their test.
In 2011, more than 1,500 young drivers were killed or seriously injured, a rate of four a day, said the Foundation.

New system
The report says that the first 1,000 miles of driving may be the most important for cutting the risk of an accident.
woman learner driver Drivers could also face a stricter drink-drive limit, under the proposals

So it is calling for a three-stage, graduated, system. New drivers would face restrictions for four years:

Stage one
A one-year minimum driving period, before the test is taken. Drivers would need to experience a wide range of conditions, including winter driving and night driving.

Stage two
After the test is taken, drivers would face restrictions for a further year. The number of passengers they could carry might be limited, and night driving might also be restricted.

Stage three
A further two-year probationary period. If during the period a driver receives six penalty points, they would have to take a re-test.

The Foundation would also like to see a stricter drink-drive limit.
At the moment the legal maximum is 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.
But this figure could be reduced to 50mg.

Insurance
Earlier this year, the Association of British Insurers (ABI) said young drivers could save up to 20% on their insurance premiums, if restrictions were put in place for newly-qualified drivers.
This might include limits on night-time driving, and restrictions on the number of passengers they are able to carry.
As a result new drivers might be able to save as much as £370 a year.

The government is currently considering a range of similar proposals, and will shortly decide whether to change the rules on driving tests.
I would like to see a graduated licence upwards from passing the test than this mess around at the beginning.
The USA has children driving at 14 in some States and drive ed at school, so that is hardly any comparison and that has been ongoing for many many years ! This fall they talk of needs to be thoroughly looked into as to how they reached their figures to ensure any true benefit. Imagine all the paperwork and enforcement hassles (or not) .... !
An encouragement to do better and better not reduce possible experiences ... or start people from a far far earlier age. I was driving from 12 and if I could have done so earlier I am sure that I would have ! :)
Too many rules and regs does not make for a better driver/rider ! :(

Much of these experiences are already achieved by training in the winter months anyway and a day or half a day at a skid pan will teach real skills yet not even mentioned.
I think much of this is about appearing to be 'doing something' than anything that will be useful.

I think teaching about how not to get your peers in the car to influence your driving might help but that can be easily taught by the instructor gradually !
I think one year after passing adding a P to your car can be helpful for those less confident but encouraging more training and incentives is far far better and far more positive. This all seems terribly negative.

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 15:51 
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My comments:

Quote:
The RAC Foundation said such countries had seen a significant reduction in the number of young people being killed in accidents. Deaths among 17- to 24-year-olds have fallen...
So its not about inexperience just age then.

Quote:
In the UK, one in five novice drivers has an accident within six months of passing their test.
In 2011, more than 1,500 young drivers were killed or seriously injured, a rate of four a day, said the Foundation.
Once again they confuse (conflate?) age and experience. These are not the same.

Quote:
woman learner driver Drivers could also face a stricter drink-drive limit, under the proposals
There is absolutely no chance of this being introduced under anti-discrimination laws.


As you imply, we need to get people learning earlier to increase their skill level. Unfortunately, it suits the Government to put off young people from getting cars as this is politically correct and avoids spending money on more roads when they need all they can save to pay for HS2.

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 22:58 
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There's this misguided concept that something must (always) be done. They look at the young people who add to the KSI stats and think how to we prevent this. All well and good if you don't stand back and consider the whole picture ! Perhaps there are some good actions to be taken but positive steps not negative one's!

From the experienced good drivers/riders that we try to be we can see an entirely different perspective. Our views are valuable and important. They must be heard.
Young road users must recognise danger and know how to manage risk and judge well and carefully. There is grave danger in constantly adding threats or enforcement and costs to re-taking tests! There is no incentive in this at all and the terrible truth that if you mollycoddle they will never learn for themselves. They have to be allowed to make mistakes ... that helps people learn, not penalise for every momentary lapse !

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 15:24 
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It is always down to experience... or lack of it.
Even stupidity can be avoided once you have experience in most cases.

As a cyclist, I can only arrive on time if I set off in good time. If I am late, I cannot pedal faster and harder to make up enough lost time, as I am not fit enough.
Car drivers who have never experienced this might be tempted to drive faster than their abilities, rather than learn to set off in good time.

Motorcycle licences are graduated according to experience. When I passed mine it was simply 250cc limit, below a certain age.
I passed my tests and can ride ANY size of motorcycle. It does NOT indicate I am competent on a large bike!

Now things are tighter, and more controlled.
It hasn't eliminated accidents, but it HAS reduced them slightly - and lately after a spate of MC accidents in Cumbria, it is older riders who are failing themselves, and hot footing it into tractors on rural roads - I believe this phenomenon has a name and is widespread. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 22:55 
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Actually even the motorbike licences are not as good as I had thought they were.
I passed my test and after 2 yrs I could buy any bike and go off and ride it yet have had no training or experience on the larger machines !
Although the trainers suggested I do the course on the larger bikes I couldn't afford that at that time, so took the longer route. Whilst I still don't have a large bike and I would seek education before doing so, it isn't as thorough as I had thought originally.
When I did my test it was quite a minefield of small print to fully understand the whole system and their requirements !

Perhaps making all licences to benefit from additional training and specific courses that educate certain additional skills and knowledge. :) Knowing you are safer and better on the road will lead to safer journeys for all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:04 
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We all know that passing a driving test requires the bare minimum in terms of driver skill and yet there are people out there, who have been driving for decades, probably even having a few years off between passing a test and getting a car or who only drive a few hundred miles a year but they are happily driving around on motorways, main roads and busy cities with just the bare skills they learnt many years ago and probably have lost some of those skills through lack of use (indicating and mirror use is the most obvious to notice).

While I agree that the test should be easy enough not to restrict too many people from getting a licence, we really should get them to realise that it is only a bare minimum qualification that should be upgraded regularly.

Just as NVQ, city and guilds are in several parts, so should driving qualifications. who would want a 17 year old gas fitter, builder or electrician doing a major job on your house with just an NVQ part 1?

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 23:27 
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Well the driving test has proven that the vast majority of riders and drivers are safe and sensible. In many ways it is not the fault of the initial education but the lack of ongoing reminders, advice and incentives.
They have played with the great interest that this culture in our Country has had for decades, and messed with it. We are now told that we ought to "watch our speed and then we will be safe" .. than reminding about all the good and sensible advice, how to best to develop our knowledge and skills!

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 01:15 
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Even the length of time someone has been driving or the distances they've covered doesn't necessarily prove much. When my former employer moved out of the city centre a lot more colleagues had to drive. Two middle aged ladies each had to do a 20 mile round trip every day (mainly on busy urban M-way) - for as it turned out - 5 years and both happily admitted to being as scared on the last trip as the first. If experience didn't improve matters I'm not sure what incentives would. A lot of drivers treat applying themselves to driving with the same curiosity and vigour as the would to learning the new washing machine controls.

And getting a bike licence :headbash: Kafka would be impressed. Thankfully I passed mine in... err well it was a while back :D

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 02:53 
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Certainly there are people out there who need help with their driving confidence. More rules and regs won't help that but help to remove more. Whether it is down to a specific incident or general uncertainty or other reasons it still needs to be addressed and improvements made.
I think having everyone go on a skid pan course ought to happen within the first 3yrs of driving. I'd say sooner but some experience helps. Encouragement to seek out more learning an understanding can help people learn and overcome some of their issues. More specific help may be necessary for some.

I think there is much that can be offered, through learning using online games & videos.
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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 14:38 
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This kind of thing has been repeatedly proposed for about the past ten years, but nothing has ever been done about it. This suggests that, behind the scenes, severe practical drawbacks have been identified.

I can see that some form of post-test assessment would be useful, but the primary problem is surely more one of attitude than skill as such.

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 16:09 
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When you are young (and generally not too wealthy) you have an older car which is not very quick but, as you are young, you drive it more recklessly than you should. You have a basic licence but drive like an idiot.

When you get older and better off, you get a much faster car but don't feel the need to drive so belligerently. You have an advanced licence but drive sensibly.

This is life and teaching the young the wisdom of their elders is impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 23:45 
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Tutoring has to be based on psychology. We must persevere and find ways to encourage the best behaviours. Those who do drive recklessly or those who make enough mistakes to have incidents and accidents, need additional / ongoing, really good advice and guidance. All road users need reminders too of what is good driving / riding behaviours, and why.
I agree the young rarely listen to those with experience and wisdom, as they don't have the experience to base their opinions on !
However I wonder if games/simulators can help the younger road users to gain more experience before they drive motor vehicles ? Especially live 're-runs' ?
People see many you tube crashes but who tells them what really went wrong and why ? People are left to their own conclusions. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 14:49 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
We are now told that we ought to "watch our speed and then we will be safe"!


Can you state who is telling you this and where cos I just don't see it.

There's a whole gamut of subjects on the below page for instance; one of the 10 subjects on the front page is about speed, maybe you're just being selective?

http://think.direct.gov.uk/


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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 15:13 
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Quote:
he facts

Speed is one of the main factors in fatal road accidents
In 2011, 3,267 people were killed or seriously injured in crashes where speed was a factor
The risk of death is approximately four times higher when a pedestrian is hit at 40mph than at 30mph
Fatal accidents are four times as likely on rural roads as urban roads


Full of truths there I see......

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 15:26 
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graball wrote:
Quote:
he facts

Speed is one of the main factors in fatal road accidents
In 2011, 3,267 people were killed or seriously injured in crashes where speed was a factor
The risk of death is approximately four times higher when a pedestrian is hit at 40mph than at 30mph
Fatal accidents are four times as likely on rural roads as urban roads


Full of truths there I see......


Er, yes, Office of national statistics, peer reviewed stats, do you know any different?


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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 16:57 
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Well I'm guessing the ...

"In 2011, 3,267 people were killed or seriously injured in crashes where speed was a factor"

....is 3.267. the total KSIs for that year...are they seriously saying that speed was a factor in EVERY case?

Or are they assuming that movement (speed to some) is an obvious factor in every collision.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Last edited by graball on Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:00 
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"Speed is a major factor in all road fatalities"....

So it's not 5%or 33% now but in excess of 50% (or 100% in the last statement above)

Is a trend starting to form in your mind?...it is in mine.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Graduated Licences?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 17:01 
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graball wrote:
Well I'm guessing the ...

"In 2011, 3,267 people were killed or seriously injured in crashes where speed was a factor"

....is the total KSIs for that year....


Total KSIs for that year, are you kidding?


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