Safe Speed Forums

I had a long conversation yesterday with a recently retired Police Officer. We discussed the North Wales tragedy.

He was telling me that 15 or so years ago he was free to determine his own actions. He was free to attend a incident or a situation for as long as he deemed necessary. But he told me that these days things are different. The 'autonomy' has gone. The control room tell you what to do and move you on as soon as possible.

Does that really mean that we're preventing (what is it?) 100,000 Police Officers on the ground from using their common sense and experience?

Does that really mean that individual officers have lost (much of) their autonomy?

Does this vary from force to force?

Is it even accurate?

And if it is what bloody buffoon failed to recognise the huge values of a) being there and b) applying intelligence, c) applying experince and d) applying pure common sense to the task of policing?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Funnily enough the same has just been the subject matter on Coppersblog.

Here is his "Policing Foodchain"

The Policing Food Chain

10. Uniformed response officers (Constables, Sergeants and Inspectors): The lowest of the low; shift-working “police-oxen”; deal with anything, no regular breaks; no assistance; unable to say, “Sorry, that’s not in my remit.”

9. Front desk enquiry officers: Surprisingly close to the response officers. One up from response in that they only deal with the public through plate glass. The fact they still have to deal with the public keeps them low in the chain though.

8. PCSOs: “It’s a crime. Not my problem. I’ll find a police officer.” Currently seen as the future of policing, unlike response officers who just crash cars and tie up custody with prisoners. Just above the bottom feeders because they only deal with certain things.

7. Community Officers: Usually more experienced and deal with “community [insoluble] problems”. Not tied to the radio, but will occasionally help out. They also attend meetings, a fact which puts them above their response colleagues.

6. Dispatchers: Air-conditioned offices. They become worried if they cannot find a response officer to deal with a problem. Regular meal breaks. They tell officers where to go, what to do and whether a crime has been committed.

5. Specialist Uniformed Officers (Dogs, Firearms, Traffic): Arrive as and when required and if the overtime is authorised. Supply statements…sometimes.

4. Plain-clothes specialist officers (Drugs squad, retail crime, vehicle crime etc.): Go on “operations” and wear casual clothes. Will attend crime scenes (but not domestics) and make arrests, but only if it falls within their remit.

3. CID (Detective Constables): Far above day-to-day nonsense. Serious crime only please. Don’t waste my time. The public love it when detectives turn up because they immediately think that we're taking their problem seriously.

2. Civilian support staff: Now we’re talking; they run the show. Alongside the dispatchers, they decide if crimes have been committed and what forms need to be filled in. They send e-mails to officers asking for information and create their own powerful bureaucracies. They certainly don’t have to deal with the public

1. Uniformed Office-based specialist officers: The elite. Experienced officers who have seen a way out and taken it, with impressive results: regular hours, coffee and tea on demand and they get paid more than their shift-working police-oxen colleagues at the bottom. Their remit changes according to what they don’t want to do. They remain in-post by performing two invaluable tasks: creating work for other people and moving lots of piles of paper on different days within their offices. They create powerpoint presentations which are attached to e-mails and sent to everyone.


Coppersblog can be found at http://coppersblog.blogspot.com/ it is an amazing insight into the life of a modern policeman and whilst it is mainly written in jest the underlying truth is always apparant

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

My own experience is that this is a little off the mark. The problem is that the jobs come in peaks and troughs. For the most part we can dictate from the front line how much time we need to spend at the scene. That does often depend on experience, and the confidence to be able to sucessfully present and argue your case with the Comms Inspector, who may occasionally be keen for you to move on to another job.




We really do not have too much interference while on a job, other than to liaise, receive and provide updates, advise if necessary. The comms inspector will instruct on occasions, but we take no instruction from anyone else other than on scene supervisors. We are the ones who are at scene and we have the first hand knowledge and awareness. We must however keep comms appraised of our activities and decisions.

The difficulties arise when jobs start to pile up, perhaps we have dealt with the basics of a collision and another perhaps more serious collision comes in. If feasible we'll ask another resource to complete the previous job, ie wait for recovery, or for council to attend to deal with diesel spillage etc, while we attend the new job.
If no other resource is available, we do our best to clear the danger then move on to the next job.

But it can ultimately be a balance between the need to attend a job, against the risk / loss of evidence associated with leaving the scene of the one which you are currently at. Fortunately for us that does not happen very often.



Yes, dependent on response workload and proactive resource levels. I can only speak for ours.



Partially, but I don't believe it is so negative.



I'd hate us to have less say in what is happening, and by and large we do still call the shots.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Thanks a lot Ian. I'm reassured.

Any officers feel differently? Perhaps it's bad in some areas?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I don't want to stray too far off the topic of police autonomy, but the issue being raised here is one that is being demonstrated in many public services at the moment and that is increasing centralisation of control.

I work in education in the public sector and I see the same thing happening - where people who apparently have been trained at great expense to have skills and professional judgement are then not permitted to exercise that judgement and are treated at best like automatons or, at worst, as untrustworthy.

I'm not entirely sure why this situation occurs, but I believe it is a result of attempts by middle and senior managers who are not adequately skilled or experienced in the tasks carried out by the people they are managing trying to keep a reign on things, always mindful of their accountability.

A sure sign of this is when the job and how its effectiveness is measured starts to become 'procedural'.

Does anyone feel the centralisation of operations jeopardises safety?

Soon after the Cumbria Control Room was centralised at Penrith, I phoned in to report a serious diesel spill on a wet road, from Ings filling station.
Despite my giving a clear indication where I was telephoning from, and where the extensive spillage had occured, the controller had no idea where I was, and seemed keen for me to give a grid reference or something (or maybe a post code?).

We were told things would change once the centre got "bedded in", but last year, my wife witnessed a serious RTA just north of Ings, late at night.
She telephoned 999 from her mobile, and told the the operator that an ambulance was required, along with police and fire brigade, as the only other vehicle was on it's side, having landed first on it's roof!!
The control room operator from Penrith, then asked WHERE the accident had occured.
Wife - "In the series of bends on the Windermere side of Ings, on the A591"
Operator - "Is that near Carnforth?" (about 25 miles away!)

The ambulance arrived before the police - yet their stations are next door to each other!
I am sure that ANYONE from the Kendal station, would have been aware exactly where the accident was likely to be - so this has got to be a problem at Penrith, and I find it disconcerting!
It makes one wonder if the policeman on the scene is subject to interference from somebody equally as unfamiliar with the circumstances, or whether that part of the operation is more local based?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ernest I have come across the same thing and now if I come across something in the Chelmsford/Maldon area I phone the HQ and ask for the duty officer who at least knows (roughly) the area. Attended an accident I phoned and another passer by dialed 999 the officer dispatched by control got there faster.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

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