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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 17:17 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
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I think mostly we take our risks one at a time. I'd more expect a driver receiving a phone call to slow down and drop back than suddenly speed up and press on. It might be two risks to an observer, but drivers are managing situational risk.


OK, but what if the driver doesn't perceive something as a risk? Tailgating isn't seen as a risk by many (I assume!) and probably, neither is making a phone call.

Do you think a subconscious over-ride kicks in if we start to compound risky activities?


Maybe. Interesting idea!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 17:27 
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RobinXe wrote:
From Paul's statistics, however, it would not seem that 'bad drivers' are the only ones phoning and driving, so supposedly the others chose to do their phoning in situations of lower risk.


We now have a law that treats everyone the same regardless of the situation and will/may be enforced accordingly (ref topic about getting SCPs to enforce seatbelt laws) rather than dwdc&a enforced by experienced officers.

Reminds me of something - ah yes, scameras.

I am thinking of the - I am using a hands free therefore I am safe - aspect.

Sorry, I am wandering around the topic a bit here as I read the other posts and think things through.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 19:20 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
With drivers, it's what they are doing with their eyes and their brain that matters, not what they are doing with their hands and feet.


I would think that using a phone most definitely uses eyes and brain. Especially texting and making calls.


Yes it does - but in this hand held and hands free are equal.


Eh? Texting on a hands free?

I admit my lack of familiarity with this technology, but is that even possible? Even if you could do it by voice alone, that must be much safer than looking at the phone and pushing buttons.

It's this texting thing I find the most worrying, much worse than simply answering a call.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 19:25 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
Eh? Texting on a hands free?

I admit my lack of familiarity with this technology, but is that even possible? Even if you could do it by voice alone, that must be much safer than looking at the phone and pushing buttons.

It's this texting thing I find the most worrying, much worse than simply answering a call.


The kit I am in the process of building/installing has this facility though I have no intention of using it unless stationary or in stop-start <10mph traffic

It's simply a touchscreen with an onscreen keyboard, can be used for sending and receiving texts.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 19:57 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
With drivers, it's what they are doing with their eyes and their brain that matters, not what they are doing with their hands and feet.


I would think that using a phone most definitely uses eyes and brain. Especially texting and making calls.


Yes it does - but in this hand held and hands free are equal.


Eh? Texting on a hands free?

I admit my lack of familiarity with this technology, but is that even possible? Even if you could do it by voice alone, that must be much safer than looking at the phone and pushing buttons.

It's this texting thing I find the most worrying, much worse than simply answering a call.


I agree that texting is bad. The usual texting arrangement is to press buttons on the phone. Hadn held and hands free phones largely require the same.

The new law does NOT prevent anyone sending or reading texts from a cradle mounted phone.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 20:55 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
The new law does NOT prevent anyone sending or reading texts from a cradle mounted phone.


So, provided my phone remains in its cradle, I can be driving along, looking down at the phone, pushing buttons to compose a lengthy text and be completely legal.
The second I pick the phone up to eye level to hit the "send" button, I'm breaking the law

In that case, I conclude that this law is complete bollocks.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 21:41 
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I was out spotting the dangerous maniacs this lunchtime. You know, those people maliciously sitting in their cars, parked up, engine idling, using their mobiles.

Why the hell is it illegal to be using the phone while the car is stationary just because the engine happens to be on? I'm sorry but this makes a mockery of it for me - and I'm an ardent opponent of using mobiles in the car.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 22:24 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
In that case, I conclude that this law is complete bollocks.


Yeah. 'fraid so.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:39 
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malcolmw wrote:
I was out spotting the dangerous maniacs this lunchtime. You know, those people maliciously sitting in their cars, parked up, engine idling, using their mobiles.

Why the hell is it illegal to be using the phone while the car is stationary just because the engine happens to be on? I'm sorry but this makes a mockery of it for me - and I'm an ardent opponent of using mobiles in the car.


Since the law came into effect, I've not seen anyone driving with a 'phone clamped to their ear.

What I have seen, is a few people inappropriately parked having a chat on their mobile.

Is this to be the result of the new law, where the side-effect is potentially worse than the crime?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:53 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Squirrel wrote:
... the fact is that driving with one hand on the wheel and one clamped to your ear is dangerous, far more so than talking on a hands-free kit would be.


I have seen absolutely no evidence for that anywhere. People keep saying it, but that doesn't make it true.


I have observed one particular driver who I have to sit with as a passenger a lot. Before he had a hands free kit his driving would get more dangerous as the hazards increased (e.g. near busy junctions). He stopped indicating, changing gear properly and steering accurately and he did not interrupt the conversation. Now he has a hands free kit he tends to stop talking (this appears to be a sub conscious decision) and do the things that matter instead.

His talking seemed to cause less of a problem on A roads and motorways just because the number of external hazards tend to be less (less side roads, roundabouts, traffic lights etc). If the risk of a crash is only significantly increased at town driving speeds it would explain why the numbers of KSI are not affected since most collisions in town are damage only.

I know a sample of one is not statistically valid but it may provide some explanation for the things we see.


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 Post subject: Mobile Phones
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 17:09 
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The issue with the mobiles used while driving is a simple one and that is when you are driving with one hand on your ear holding a phone plus having a conversation you are not in full control of the vehicle.

When changing gear or other associated matters with driving you only take a hand off for a split second to carry out the operation.

How many times do you see people driving round roundabouts / junctions etc. with a phone held on their ear and this blatantly dangerous as they are not in full control of the vehicle!

I have seen drivers driving with their knees steering the vehicle while they answer a call as they change gear if anybody says this is sensible and safe they should be locked up and the key thrown away!

We all have a responsibility to drive in a safe manner but some just take the michael and as far as I am concerned anyone who drives while on the phone driving onehanded deserves to be prosecuted with the full force of the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobile Phones
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 17:22 
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Stormin wrote:
The issue with the mobiles used while driving is a simple one and that is when you are driving with one hand on your ear holding a phone plus having a conversation you are not in full control of the vehicle.

When changing gear or other associated matters with driving you only take a hand off for a split second to carry out the operation.

How many times do you see people driving round roundabouts / junctions etc. with a phone held on their ear and this blatantly dangerous as they are not in full control of the vehicle!

I have seen drivers driving with their knees steering the vehicle while they answer a call as they change gear if anybody says this is sensible and safe they should be locked up and the key thrown away!

We all have a responsibility to drive in a safe manner but some just take the michael and as far as I am concerned anyone who drives while on the phone driving onehanded deserves to be prosecuted with the full force of the law.

That may well be your gut feeling, but, as Paul has pointed out, there is absolutely no scientific evidence that drivers on their mobile are disproportionately involved in accident statistics. In which case the basis for legislation is rather flimsy...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 23:08 
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The fallacy that plays to people's gut instincts is:

Two hands = safe
One hand = unsafe

Of course this is utter nonsense!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 23:26 
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RobinXe wrote:
The fallacy that plays to people's gut instincts is:

Two hands = safe
One hand = unsafe

Of course this is utter nonsense!


Absolutely. And to paper over the obvious cracks we have a whole series of contrived 'what ifs'.

- what if a child ran out?
- what if a tyre blew out?

'Being in control' is mainly a state of mind.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 09:30 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
'Being in control' is mainly a state of mind.


What a pity then that too many drivers are in completely the wrong frame of mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:47 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
'Being in control' is mainly a state of mind.


What a pity then that too many drivers are in completely the wrong frame of mind.


The fact that the proportion is increasing is the reason we're here. Good policy can help drivers into the right 'frame of mind', but bad policy is pushing them out of it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 15:14 
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There is no definition of the 'right' frame of mind though. WE all know that you need to be relaxed, focussed (on the right things), situationally aware, etc etc etc, but the majority don't seem to know (or care).

Take tailgating as the obvious example. It may not figure strongly in the accident causation statistics, but it is still dangerous, and VERY irritating. It would seem that most drivers don't actually know what a safe following distance is because most DO tailgate.

I agree with Paul in that, yet again, the legislation has focussed on one of the symptoms of the problem, not the cause. The problem is the majority of motorists' lax attitude towards a potentially very dangerous task, the symptom is the willingness to allow themselves to be distracted by things like mobile phones. The only way positive change will come about is by making it clear that when you're in control of any vehicle, driving is the single most important task you're engaged in. It doesn't matter whether you're going 5 or 500 hundred miles. Once you've got people to understand that then you can entrust them to make their own decisions as to whether or not a particular activitiy is going to affect driving.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 15:57 
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Interesting timing on your post there Sixy; I was discussing the very same issues just this lunch time with one of the other pilots here, a vastly experienced aviator who is currently an examiner for our flying instructor training.

'Frame of mind', we feel, is not so much 'wrong' in many drivers, but absent altogether. Allow me to clarify. We have a 'condition' within aviation known as the 'Mission Bubble': You're going flying, so from a point prior to commencement of that activity, that is at the forefront of your concentration. Within the bubble you make every effort not to allow factors that do not influence it to penetrate into your thoughts.

I feel many, if not most, drivers lack a similar approach to driving. They jump in and go, not giving the proper priority within their concentration to the task at hand. The aviation maxim of 'Aviate, Navigate, Communicate' applies equally to driving (substituted for 'aviate' of course!).

We also felt that tailgating was a much greater threat to road-safety than anything the current policy addresses (speeding/phoning/etc). Without adequate space to think and react, any hazard at all becomes disproportionately severe. I made the analogy of low flying; at altitude an engine failure will see you making a reasonably safe approach to a suitable landing area, potentially even an airfield, whereas at low level it is likely to see you ploughing into the ground in short order.

Of course I could go ahead and concoct an automated enforcement system that measured the distance between two cars and sent out fines automatically where that gap was less than, say, 2 seconds, but that would be no better than speed cameras (though it might make me a fortune):

    It would penalise those conducting the activity safely, for example adopting the primary overtaking position.

    It would be prone to errors, on multi-lane roads for example, or jointed vehicles such as artics, caravans or trailers.

    It would not educate the driver, or prevent them from continuing the unsafe practice for up to a fortnight, and the fine may very well find itself on the doorstep of their widowed spouse or bereaved parent.

    It would only discourage the behavior for a short stretch of road. I would imagine the braking would be even more severe to quickly establish a safe gap on approach to the device, likely causing severe pile-ups in queues of tailgating traffic


Evidently it shares many of the flaws common to all automated enforcement!

So is specific legislation 'outlawing' tailgating required? Of course not! The only possible reason for doing so is so that it can be enforced by non-police agencies for profit, since current Careless/Dangerous Driving legislation is more than adequate for purpose.

So how to eradicate it? Highlight its dangers (I am certain it features much more highly in crash stats than exceeding the speed limit or phoner-driving) through education and provide trained and qualified policing as a stick to help home the message.

I would be interested to hear from any of our BiB contributors about their experiences regarding tailgating, and any guidance they have been given.

How to encourage the 'Mission Bubble' in drivers? A more difficult task, since giving a disproportionate amount of attention to any one aspect (as with speed, or tailgating, kills) is contrary to the ideal. Also people will be loathe to postpone the driving task merely on their state of mind. Promoting more tolerance in drivers would be a great start, since angry driving is seldom, if ever, as safe as calm driving, and giving strategies to manage any anger that does arise. Making drivers realise the gravity of the task they are undertaking is the goal, but it is easily corrupted by specifics: Don't speed/Don't run over kids/Don't tailgate can all threaten to divert attention from other areas. Increased tuition and ongoing, non-recriminatory, supervision would seem like the way to go.

Bit of a ramble I'm afraid, but the exploration of ideas is often such!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 16:17 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
The only way positive change will come about is by making it clear that when you're in control of any vehicle, driving is the single most important task you're engaged in. It doesn't matter whether you're going 5 or 500 hundred miles. Once you've got people to understand that then you can entrust them to make their own decisions as to whether or not a particular activitiy is going to affect driving.


Acknowledging Robin's analysis above, this is IMHO is the crux of the matter. And its only when I step out of the rarified environment that is the SSers approach to driving and back into the real world amongst the other 99.99% of the driving public, that I realise the enormity of the task. I believe we will never get enough people to understand/accept this and hence it becomes necesssary to isolate behaviours that any thick head can recognise and understand - do not exceed the speed limit, do not use a hand-held mobile phone etc.
I accept that there are drawbacks in this method and that it will inconevenience those who may be able to cope; this may not necessarily be those who think they can cope.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 16:17 
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RobinXe wrote:
'Frame of mind', we feel, is not so much 'wrong' in many drivers, but absent altogether.


Yet despite this we have amazingly safe roads with one death per 100 million miles driven. Creating 'mission bubble' behaviour in many drivers is out of the question despite its considerable desireability.

What we do need to do is nudge average behaviour slightly closer to the mission bubble ideal every year. There are no cliffs in this long slow climb, we just need to make sure we're a bit closer to the peak every year.

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