Safe Speed Forums

Steady-on Tone! You need a car with a PIC-controlled automatic mood-sensing relaxing aromatherapy infusion dispenser!

(Hmmmm, just given me an idea....)

I think, as DCB has said in the past, cars, in real terms, have never been as cheap as they are now. Aside from that, I sometimes find myself shaking my head incredulously as I see some seemingly barmy feature, only to learn that actually, there's a very good technical reason for it to be there. Take throttle-by-wire for example. I mean, who the hell can't work an accelerator cable (or finds it too tiring)!? The real reason though, is to allow the Electronic Stability Control to work. It also has the effect of making cruise control a piece of cake. They can also use it as part of a traction contro lsystem or, indeed, to limit the torque in the lower gears simply to extend the life of the transmission.

Handbrakes have to work as an emergency brake too - and you have to be able to stop in a certain distance (or achieve a prescribed minimum deceleration) without exerting more than (I think) 40kg force on the lever. As brake pads get ever harder, and cars get heavier (especially people carriers), this can become difficult - whereas with an electric handbrake, all it takes is a flick of your little finger, and they stop much better than on a conventional handbrake (and with little danger of rear wheel lockup. It gives you more storage space betwen the front seats, and hill starts are a complete doddle. (So much so, that I think they should be banned from driving school cars)!

It can hardly be argued that an electric handbrake (or, indeed, electric seats, aircon, etc) area cost-saving exercise either. They all cost more to fit than to leave off. I can't remember whether it was the Nissan Infiniti or the LExus, but I read about one such car having electrically operated air vents in the dash! Seemed like a daft idea at the time, but on theri "auto" setting, they just automatically waft the cooled air round the car interior without ver creating a cold spot on one part of your body.

Quite right. In 1959 my father bought a 2year old Ford Popular for £350. Since then average earnings have gone up 40x so that is equivalent £14K today. You can buy a very damn good two year old car for that money these days.
The mini was introduced in 1959 at £500 (= £20,000) more than the cost of a top of the range modern Mini
(And, as an aside, I remember him slagging off the recently introduced Mini because it didn't have a starting handle)

In 1971 my girlfriend bought the cheapest new car on the market - Citroen 2CV -for £700. Adjusting for the 20x average earnings have gone up that too is £14K. A recent auto-express article lists 14 new small cars priced at under £8K, all of them much more sophisticated and fuel efficient than the 2CV

[/quote] Aside from that, I sometimes find myself shaking my head incredulously as I see some seemingly barmy feature, only to learn that actually, there's a very good technical reason for it to be there.[quote]
That is what Big T overlooks when he criticises the use of embedded microprocessors. Semiconductors are far and away the cheapest and most reliable electronic components to manufacture and these days it is good engineering practice to use them as much as possible. For example I recently needed a long period timer. That's simple enough isn't it? A resistor and a big cap. Except that an electrolytic cap costs more then cheapest PIC, is at best 20% tolerance, takes up more room and is less reliable. Just like the indicator controller that so bothers Big T. You could build it with several transistors and resistors and capacitors. Or you could and do build it with a PIC for a tenth of the cost. Tone calls that crap design. I call it good engineering.


How do you do a hill start with an electric hand brake.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Just drive off!

Ed is likely to be able to give much more detail on me, because different systems vary, but on my car (Peugeot 5008) there must be a simple switch on the clutch pedal. If you rev the car without touching the clutch, the handbrake stays on. If you press or release the clutch without incresing the revs, it still stays on. If it sees revs rising AND clutch being released, it disengages the handbrake. It's so simple, I'd be keen to see the driving licence changed so that (like an automatic) if you take your test in a car with an electric handbrake, you're only allowed to drive cars with electric handbrakes.

It is possible to fool it (e.g. only letting the clutch up a tiny bit) but by and large it's very easy to do. I just find that I sometimes try to drive off with the handbrake on in my own car!

I'll have to try it on the Hard Knott pass one day and see what happens when doing hill starts on extreme gradients, but it also has "hill hold" (completely separate system to the handbrake) which holds the footbrake on for about 2 seconds after you take your foot off the brake when facing uphill in a forward gear or downhill in reverse. That gives plenty of time to move the left foot to the clutch for the hill start anyway. I've "fooled" that one a few times by setting off too quickly though, and there's a momentary hesitation as it tries to take off against the footbrake (and a 1.6 deiesel invariably comes off worse than the footbrake)!

Yes .... depends on the system ... and I'd only really be able to comment on vehicles with our system on and probably wouldn't want to commit to what those are or whose system it is

Suffice to say it's not a cheap PIC, has a massive amount of built in failsafe and is one of the systems that gets the better feedback in general in these kinds of online discussions.

I’m just speaking as I, or we, find ed; I’m not saying they’re all bad but there most certainly are some bad ideas and designs which needlessly get through the net.

So is usability not in the spec or is it a case that if it's functional but not user friendly it doesn’t matter? Serious question ed; I'm not being Mr Fussy, no-one at work likes it. As I say, it's a great engine ruined by what looks to us as 'someone didn't actually own it for a few weeks and give an honest and impartial verdict'.

The others at work who are not at all mechanically minded are still nonetheless qualified to comment on a crap thing or idea when they use it - and they have. Of the other work colleagues I have asked we are unanimous on this, (crap), feature. I have seen for myself others turning the key in the door, walk to the boot, look like an idiot and walk back to the key still in the door to turn it a few more times to make sure and then walk back to the boot for attempt #2. The gentler, more fragile, of the sex struggle to pull the boot open when it is finally unlocked. I see this for myself too. You would think you could open it with a couple of fingers, Pudingoffski himself wouldnt be able to.

I don't know how these things get through unless it's because they are badly designed or cheap cr.... (Sorry to bang on about it).

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Not sure if ed hates me now Middle ground and compromise then perhaps..

We have substituted old and unreliable crap, the likes of a Morris Marina had, for new and unreliable crap, the likes of an Octavia has. The window of my Marina needed help to get up and close, using my hand, because something went wrong with the mechanism. The Octavia has a more sophisticated means of using the windows without driver intent. I could cite so many examples here, as I'm sure we all could. (OK, just me then). Is this acceptable in 2011?

The crying shame for me is I know we can do it all better and more reliably, (and good cheap). But honestly, when I drive some of the new stuff it makes me despair at how incredibly some cars look as though they went straight from the drawing board to the public guinea pigs with very obvious problems or difficulties.

If I'm travelling light I actively avoid using the Octavia we have in favour of an older, less powerful, Peugeot 207 because the indicators ‘indicate’ when I want and cancel when I want, or at least in a totally predictable manner after doing a turn whereby they cancel.

I actively avoid using the Octavia we have in favour of our Peugeot 207 because when I press an icon on the key fob which looks like an open lock you have a cast iron assurance and guarantee it WILL be open when it flashes, (instead of causing you grief), and you won’t need to put petite women on steroids and a Charles Atlas course to 'clean and jerk' it open!

That, IMHO, should not be too much to ask in 2011 of any regular car built for the masses.

Well that's what I think based on my personal, considerable, experience. But what's that worth? Maybe if I was 23 and held a 1st degree it would prove I know what I'm talking about and carry more weight. Pah!

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Don't get me wrong, Tone. I wouldn't want a car with a leccy handbrake either - and for precisely the reasons you cite. I tend to buy cars when they're old for a few hundred quid and keep them a long time - doing all my own work on them. That doesn't mean I can't see the advantages of leccy handbrakes, and if there was a no-hassle option, that made them no worse than a conventional one to maintain in their old age, I might consider one after all. I've yet to see what happens when the car gets old, has been through several sets of brake pads and a few flat batteries (flat battery being a big problem with leccy handbrakes because they're difficut to release with no power, so you can all but forget asking someone for a bump start!) and then fails an MOT on "inefficient handbrake".... scary! Can't do handbrake turns either!

As for your other gripes. Both seem like really lousy bits of design to me! The lack of tactile feedback on a boot catch seems pretty awful. For all we know, they DO get lots of complaints and are re-designing it for the next model as we speak! Same goes for indicators that won't latch! I've never seen such things and it sounds like a really awful system!

As far as I'm aware, the ultimate design decision rests with the Directors in a car company. Someone will have signed these features off. They tend to solicit a wide range of opinions - often even loaning out pre-production cars to their biggest customers for evaluation and feedback. They have "focus groups" and all that sort of thing too, so I can't explain how those got through the net - other than lots of people liked them for some reason?

Thanks Mole, I was beginning to think I live in a different world to everyone else. I’d love to swing by yours and demonstrate it to you.

I don’t mean to pick on just the one car, I feel at a disadvantage because I drive so many different cars that I get to see these things more than most. They are always trying to reinvent the wheel. A trivial example is my tube of toothpaste.. Can you believe someone thought “I think we can make this better” So now the cap is like a bayonet fit which clicks into place.

I wasn’t aware there was ever a problem with the normal flip top cap and what’s more you couldn’t put it down somewhere and loose it or it rolls on the floor but nooooo.. We need to change it for the worse! Who and why anyone thought that needed to be changed FFS

It’s interfering for interfering’s sake and they have made it worse. Were people writing in to Colgate complaining about them? I very much doubt it. Yet you can bet some nob head made a lot of money and got a pat on the back for that ‘clever’ change. They’ll make another stupid change soon no doubt and of course put the word ‘TURBO’ on it just so the public know how much better it is than a 'normally aspirated' tube of toothpaste.

(“Was he just going on about toothpaste?”) Yes! I’m trying to say that whether it’s an electric handbrake, indicators or the humble, reliable, never went wrong tube of toothpaste, the need to fix that which is not broken seems endemic in all walks of life these days.

I can probably think of more examples but I'll rest my case at that...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

My good old fashioned manual, cable and lever handbrake failed while the car was parked and the only thing which stopped it rolling into a main road was a Rover Metro. This was 20 years ago.

Please note: off-topic posts have been split into this thread.

Curiously unusual for such a single issue poster keen to warn the whole world about this "issue" a google for the thread title or somewhat unique user id brings up no other hits.

Quite! As I mentioned elsewhere ed a pigeon poster who doesn't take an interest in the thread he started. As I suspected...


His user name gave it away. It's like a devout Roman Catholic joining here and calling himself 'Condom Hater' and then buggers off.

I think the thread split title is disingenuous to include toothpaste since I was clearly using it as a simple example of tampering with good engineering, along with crap indicators and boots which are not included in the split title. If it's to teach me a lesson to rigidly stay on topic, even with spam posters, lesson learned. The inference is that I was trying to solicit an entire debate on toothpaste dynamics alone, which is ridiculous, so I don't think I'll be contributing to the split. "Hooray!"

Sadly no, not from the o/p. Why am I not surprised..

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.