Safe Speed Forums

I believe that the Amber phase on UK traffic lights is of fixed duration (3 secs?). Surely this is ridiculous? Traffic lights can be on roads with 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70mph limits, and obviously on a NSL 70 limit you'll need more notice to slow down and stop safely than on a 30 or 20, so are more likely to be an "amber gambler". IIRC, in the USA the "yellow" phase (as they call it) is variable. Isn't it time to try that here?

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A few rogue red light in Manchester and the East Lancs at Atehrleigh Way or whatever. Mentione dit before the the green-amber red i and red/amber - green sequences are ludrcrously short - in many cases changing just as you set off at these sites. On the A580, in particular as an NSL dual carriageway - extremely dangerous. I think I read of a 12 year old being killed at the A580 at one - the Mosley Common Road junction - also red light camera'd...

Personally - I always approach lights expecting them to change to red and am always prepared to stop safely - but then - that's me! I would never try to beat them. Not worth it.

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And how would you judge, when the lights changed to amber, whether to stop or whether to go?

It's a mad idea - we depend on having a predictable amber duration.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Because if the lights are on amber and you are able to stop, then you must stop musn't you? Amber means stop no?

on

Well yes, it's the responsibility of the Local Authorities and their contractors.

But in situations when Traffic Lights aren't operating properly - when the timings
are wonky - people can get killed. I know a family that lost a teenage son some
years back. He was just crossing the road at a Pelican Crossing. The faulty Lights
switched back after just a few seconds and he was knocked down by a driver who,
in the outside lane, was overtaking congested traffic.

I suspect that mis-timed traffic lights are not particularly rare so :

1. Perhaps there should be some independent non-government body monitoring
them and keeping statistics.

2. Motorists are rightly taken to court for Dangerous Driving. Shouldn't Local
Authorities and their employees also be liable to criminal charges if their failures cause
death or injury?

It's nowhere near so simple. Is that an emergency stop? Even if you are being closely followed? If it isn't an emergency stop, we're immediately into needing a judgement. And we need to know how long the amber will be to get that judgement right.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Okay, so any reason not to have them all five seconds instead of three? It would still be predictable and would be a more realistic length of time for the amber phase on 50, 60 and NSL roads. Yeah I know it's a silly place to have traffic lights, but I can think of four sets within 5 miles of where I live and people do get caught out by ligts going amber when they're too close to stop in time. So if we have to have lights on high speed roads why not an amber phase that's uitable for the likely speed of the traffic? Would changing all the lights to 5 seconds encourage amber gamblers on lower speed roads? If so, would it not be a possible to have the amber phase directly related to the speed limit - 30mph=3 second amber, 40mph=4sec, 50mph=5sec and so on? Still predicatble providing you know the limit (which is something else that needs sorting out of course ).

Just chucking ideas around. Maybe it should be in Brainstorming?

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When you currently approach a set of lights which turn to amber you have to make a decision, stop safely or go? This decision is based on how close you are to the junction vs your speed at the time; an emergency stop is not normally required unless you were'nt paying attention or were going too fast.
With a variable amber phase, provided of course this isn't ridiculously short, when the lights turn to amber you are faced with exactly the same decision, i.e. can I stop safely or not, surely?
The only reason it would present a problem is when you are not looking to stop but are instead aiming to make a lunge for it on the amber phase. Which is the gist of what started the thread isn't it?
A colleague sitting next to me watching me type this has remined me of how it works in Germany. At some junctions there are a set of pre-lights some way up the road (200m or so) which begin to flash when the lights ahead are about to change. If you are travelling at (or below) the speed limit and you see these lights flash, you do not have enough time to get through the junction ahead and should prepare to stop.

Nope. You have to decide if you can stop safely or go safely. If you're approaching at 44mph and you're 3 seconds away from the lights when they change to amber the decision is critical - you're going to go through right at the last instant of the amber OR you're going to have to use maximum comfortable braking effort (i.e. 0.45g).

Changing lights always lead to critical decisions if you happen to be the wrong distance from them when they change. A constant amber length is a very good assistant to the critical decision process.

We've had this before, but I don't believe that traffic lights should be used on roads where the speed limit is greater than 40mph. Across much of the country they are not. But around PeterE's area (Manchester) they are so used quite a bit without apparent problems.

My advice is never approach a light that may change at much over 40mph.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The A580 is tricky, is it not? There we seem to have traffic lights on a road where the approach speed could be anything up to 70 mph, if I remember the road correctly.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Nope, not convinced me even by adding this important word that I missed out, it doesn't change the thrust of my point.
The decision to stop/go is not based upon how much amber phase you think will be left when you pass through, it is (or at least should be) purely based upon whether you feel you can stop safely or should continue safely to avoid a collision. Thats the way I've always understood it.
It is of course up to the authority responsible for the lights to ensure that the amber phase is appropriate for the speed of the traffic approaching it, i.e it isn't ridiculously short. If you approach in the right frame of mind, the worst thing that can happen (that is any different to what we currently have) is that you find yourself sitting stationary at an amber light having stopped safely.

Oh BUM! Stopping or going is ALWAYS a critical decision if you're the wrong distance from the lights. You can't gloss over it by ignoring half of the equation.

Stopping safely isn't an 'absolute' - it's one of two risks. Good drivers always pick the smaller risk.

Search your own experience and consider those traffic light situations where the decision to brake was a borderline 'no'. Now mentally make it worse by tiny increments... At some point it 'flips'. That's the critical decision point.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I would agree that a constant and standard duration would be a big help - and longer on roads such as the A580 - which as I recall is 70- mph from Leigh to outskirts of Liverpool and 60-50mph Leigh-Manchester. But could be wrong - some time since I last drove it.

Like the Mad Doc - I approach a green light expecting it to change and adjust and plan my course of action accordingly.

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We have a standard duration, which I think is 3 seconds, but it takes no account of increased stopping distances, and therefore stopping times at increased speeds. The USA, I believe, takes this into account when setting amber times. (Oh, and we have plenty of traffic lights on NSL 70 roads - usually at roundabouts.) It ought to be piloted in a particular area of the country and evaluated after, say 12 months. If it stands a chance of reducing red light shooters it must be worth a try.

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Keep right on to the end of the road ...

Not 3 seconds at Atherleigh Way on A580 or on Regent Road (A57) near Sainsbury's. I notice them more as someone who drives by thes on odd occasions and with the eye of the "new kid in town"

Have come across others in Cambridge, Chester, and North Wales and sone or two other places when driving around visiting pals and family.

On the other hand - comes across some lights which reamin on amber for 4 seconds and on red for almost 4 minutes!

On that basis - I question "standard duration" cos - if standard would mean all these lights would be "standard" and not deviate.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

If the amber isn't three seconds it isn't a set of traffic lights in law. (Not sure about the tolerance).

(edited to add missing 'if')

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

going

This is exactly the nightmare scenario of the lacuna in the law regarding trafic lights which is plugged by ordinary people every day.

The law effectively says You must stop at a red light if you haven't crossed the stop line. It therefore implies you can go (or continue) if you have crossed the stop line no matter how long ago such a crossing took place. Most people in the situation you have highlighted would stop and wait even though they could not be done for jumping the lights (possibly dangerous driving but this is an 'opinion' offence NOT a 'factual' offence like exceeding a posted speed limit).

As it stands, we have drivers exercising common sense in these situations by waiting, albeit beyond the stop line, until the next green phase.

With the above statement in mind, I wish to clarify my earlier post where I said they could and should use all the Gatsos at traffic lights: I want people nicked for disobeying the spirit of the law. I want the Scamerati to note I would quickly remove all my support for traffic light cameras if they were abused by, for example, nicking the bloke who stops 'gently' (as in without having to resort to an emergency stop) a foot or so beyond the stop line - technically, this is an offence; but provided that the crossing and or junction beyond has not been encroached into or safety compromised in any way then NO TICKET !!!!!!

I want the Scamera Scum to look at and analyse perhaps 5 pictures of a possible red light offence - we all know the difference between what is taking the piss by crossing the stop line after the lights change and getting out of the way of a fire engine, for example (where a motorist crosses the stop line at 5 miles an hour at most and pulls to one side before the junction, etc).

Indescriminate nicking without actual analysis of the data is what makes the vast majority of ordinary people think you're trash.

I say again, people who deliberately and recklessly jump red traffic lights should be instantly removed from the roads because this is seriously dangerous. And having clarified and qualified how I would like to see the cameras used (as in reasonable analysis of the pictures before just asking for money), I would support their use.

All nice in theory - slowing down before a light in case it changes. I just hope you're not the driver in front of me.