Safe Speed Forums

As an additional, one of those articles states that in the year to September 2003, 31 people were killed in police persuits. That's around 1% of all road traffic accident fatalities!!!

Well - was trained in the "good old days" anyway! Am (gulp!) getting on for more years than really should admit to!

Now mush!

About these BiB bashin' stories ......

1. The case of the Honda Fireblade being chased instead of the Suzuki.

Independent witnesses said they were riding too fast, and had death wish, and that they mounted a kerb.

Question is - why did they run?

Diificult to say or even without fullest details - but there would have been enquiry.

Sometimes some young scrotes try it on with us - bait us to chase even. Trouble is - you never really know whether they have something to hide or not - and you really have to judge whether to pursue or not - given that young inexperienced BiBs can indeed succumb to dreaded "red mist" too.

Measures are in place to manage these pursuits - and bottom line with our mob - abort if dangerous! Another chance to get "sonny!"


The second one - reported failure to stop at a red light.

The third one - driver was spotted at high speed and failed to stop for BiB with flashing blue lights and sirens

The fourth example - chasing after alleged incident (perhaps fill up and run?) from a petrol station

The fifth one - OK driver was ill and possibly needing medication - so why the hell was he in his car? Insulin dependent - he knows the score! He know what happens if he goes hypo! He is manager when behind the wheel of his car - the bloke in charge of the vehicle! That sort of driver nearly killed my cousin - remember! The chap who nearly killed her was in fact spotted driving erratically by a Panda before he drove onto motorway - and he did not chase him. Perhaps if he had - this family would not have gone through absolute hell at the time!

The sixth one = stolen car!


What do you want me and my mates to do?

Not catch the bad guy?

It is always difficult to decide whether to pursue or not - especially these days! But you want us to catch the bad guys - so we try to!

We do pursue - but we follow guidelines to the letter - at least in my patch we do - and as far as am aware - other forces are as competent as they can be with reduced manpower.

Our patch has tightened up procedure too - we get lot of stick from certain CC over the speed cam issue - so we cannot afford to screw up! Our reputation is on the line here!

If it looks like getting too dangerous - our management team tell the guys to back off.

Offenders do re-offend and we can pick them up later if need be. Sonny scrote is usually a complete twazak and he makes mistakes of turning up again making rude gestures to us!

Training for us is continuous as well. My mate Will may not like us practising pursuits on the highways - but can assure you we do not tailgate ordinary road users, emulate twazak behaviour or misbehave in this kind of exercise. At least - not where we are! Nor has any training I have been involved in been of that nature!

The seventh - OK - take the point that certain Forces cut corners here!

My patch do not - but then again - we do police our patch without fixed cameras - but do use unmarked, marked and mobiles to cop you lot breaking the law!

Aren't 6 and 7 the same incident? The stories are dated only a day apart, the junction is the same, both cars are minis, both plodmobiles are marked Vectras and both the dead are described as 16 year old girls (named in the later article, un-named in the earlier one). Fair do's, eh? Besides, these aren't examples of where innocent bystanders have died as a result of a plod pursuit getting out of control, or the rare ones where pursuit training has gone pear shaped with lethal consequences. The last link DevilsAdvocate gave shows that mistakes do happen, and while it may be more frequent than in the past the police are at least trying to recognise and rectify these failures. Some more bloody funding for training wouldn't go amiss IMO. High speed training has to be risky, and when someone dies as a result of police training going wrong the officers at fault deserve everything they get. The same applies when they carry on a car chase past the point of acceptable risk to the public. (Frankly, sod the risk to the criminals, it's just the rest of us I'm concerned about.) No-one disputes that the police sometimes screw things up royally, and when that happens they need to make sure that A, lessons are learned, and B, heads roll if appropriate.

However, except for training accidents the police are never entirely to blame. We all have to take responsibility for our actions, and that includes people being chased by police. Trying to lose 'em is daft, but if you try you must accept the consequences. No-one is making you. I remember the one about the diabetic guy being on the local news. IIRC the journos did not make it sound as if the police were in any way to blame, more that everyone was a bit mystified as to why this happened. The guy could have stopped, but he carried on for miles even after they'd used a stinger on him. Now if his condition made him irrational for whatever reason then it wasn't really his fault either. It has to be chalked up as one of those things that couldn't be avoided.

Normally the driver of a car being chased can guarantee his safety any time he likes simply by giving up. I think it's safe to assume that the days of falling down the stairs on the way to the cells are behind us now, and even if they weren't it's still better than laminating yourself to a tree. It's not unlike that bloke who was shot dead by police at Heathrow last year. The silly sod was waving an imitation gun at them - what did he think they'd do, call him names? They gave him plenty of chances to put it down, but eventually they thought he might shoot so they shot him first. Sad, but tough shit. They couldn't possibly know it was a fake gun till they could get their hands on it themselves, he wasn't having any of it so he got shot. I think the Yanks call it suicide by cop, which sums it up pretty nicely. Getting into a situation where the police have to chase you, and you end up crashing, is as much suicide by cop as pointing a fake gun at armed officers knowing full well that they might shoot you. In both situations, possible firearm and car chase, the police have to react in a certain way. But in both situations the ultimate control is not in the hands of the police, but in those of the suspect. The suspect can defuse the situation at any time by giving up. Not doing so is entirely their choice and they must live, or possibly not, with the consequences.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I should probably point out that I'm not so bothered about the content/details of those stories - I just went onto BBC News website and searched for "Police Chase" and "death" so I haven't had time to study each of them at length. (Some of us are busy working for a living too you know... ;o)

I'm not so much getting at the police - I know that in each of those cases the officers involved will have assessed the situation and acted in line with procedures. It's a shame that people have died in these instances but as IG said, why do they run? Lord knows I would rather the police chase criminals who are driving wrecklessly and put them behind bars. But the right processes and training have to be in place to protect the public and also to cover the Polices' back!

The thing I advocate most about these aricles though, it that it at least shows there are still one or two patrol cars on the roads chasing crims. ;o)

Despite your assurances, that is exactly what I reported at the head of this thread. On TV for all to see was a highly trained police driving instructor playing the bad guy on an in-use public road. At speeds in excess of 110 mph, this epitome of police driving weaved from lane to lane, undertook, overtook, tailgated civilians, and generally behaved like a "twazak". Meanwhile, the students were driving hell-bent on catching the target vehicle and were exercising just as little regard for public safety.

Over the last couple of decades I have noticed an appalling decline in police driving standards. The TV programme that I reported goes some way to explaining why. After all, if the standard of instructors is poor it is likely that so will be the standard of their pupils.

Now, I have no objection to police training on public roads provided that training is done safely, for example by ensuring speed and separation commensurate with public safety. If safety cannot be ensured then take the exercise off the public roads.

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Will

I think whats demonstrated in the last couple of posts is part of the overall pattern. There are some coppers (as with any profession) who have common sense and are good at their job. However, there are no doubt some, who are utter, utter ***holes who are completely lacking in basic common sense.

It is these individuals in the force who do stupid things (Stupid People) and who give the Police a bad name. This just makes it harder for the good coppers to do their job!

I can talk from first hand experience about tail gaiting:

Around 4-5 years ago, I worked at a pub in a local town about 9 miles away. I live in an extremely rural area. I was driving home, after work, in my mothers car at about 01:00. I was followed by a dark saloon out of the town onto unlit, dark country roads. As we went from the 30 to the 60 limit, the car following me got closer and closer. It's only because of my smart arsed knowledge of cars nd the time I knew it was an unmarked police T5. They pulled me over for a "routine check" about 6 miles from town on a pitch black road. By the time he put his blues on, I couldn't see anything of his headlights. I could see the reflection of the dash lights on his face though. At the time I knew the roads, the night was clear and dry and conditions were good. I was driving safely and bang on the speed limit. I'm convinced this officr was tying to push me above the limit or to lure me into slamming my brakes on. As it was, I got an HR/OT1 to produce my documents. I don't mind doing this but had already had 3 HR/OT1's that year whilst driving home in my mothers car.

I know the actions of this police driver cannot be regarded as representative of all police drivers, but at the time it did change my feelings towards local traffic police. What if the motorist had been my mother or my girlfriend? Stopped by an unmarked car on a desolate road? This could have been any fool with blue lights behind his grille and may not have necessarily been a police officer!

I would and have advised anyone (particulary female), that if they find themselve in a similar situation, do not stop:
1. Continue driving safely and calmly to the most populated and well lit area you can find.
2. Remain in your car ith the doors locked and let the driver of the persuing vehicle come to you.
3. When they do, only open the window enough so you can hear them and so they cannot get their hand through the window
4. Make sure, if it is police officer, they identify themself with their warrant card.

If they try to do you for not stopping, raise the issue with them, do not admit to a "failing to stop" charge.

And rememer, a traffic officer can only pull you if they are in uniform.

Hesitated in responding to this as bit too close to home if you understand!

Low on sympathy for driving whilst unfit for reasons which are no secret - my wife even gave the details on PH to underline danger of driving whilst unfit and both myself and I-G have done so on here.

Diabetics know exactly consequences of "going hypo" and are given list of guidelines to follow. This chap would have been aware of this. Sorry - no excuse! He is responsible for taking the medication, checking his blood sugar and making sure that he eats regularly and eats correct diet.

Think we treat these people just for fun? Without guidelines issued to them?

. Was he driving without licence perhaps - it has been known to revoke licence for Class 1 diabetes as it can be erratic condition!

But really - not much sympathy for this one!

As for the rest - if they nick a car, drive dangerously and increase the danger by not giving up and kill themselves in process - again do not feel that much sympathy! They are responsible for their actions - they can give up at any time and leg it. What I would hope is that police give up chase as soon as danger to innocents becomes apparent. Scrotes and cars are not worth it! Apart from that - picking up the pieces from this sort of action really does cost the NHS! Must admit - if I have had to treat person who has stolen a car in the past (going back to junior days when I was not as sensible ) did select the needles which would hurt most!

Guess it is too close for me to be objective! Nearly lost my wife due to man being ill at the wheel of the car after all. But she survived, recovered fully She is "milking" this pregnancy as well! Making me suffer already - I have to more or less dance attendance on her! and we have not even got to the best bit yet!

Each and every incident involving any prang is invetigated. Said to you before - we are not above the law ourselves! We are treated exactly the same way - there are even some cops around with endorsements for pinging a Gatso! Does not go down well - but they do keep the job! Rumour has it that they get sit down job - in a talivan!

There is always danger of "red mist" - especially with young recruits - and we are trying to keep tighter control over this in training sessions and briefings. Pursuit management techniques are under scrutiny all the time - and there is now clear message that pursuit must be aborted if there is chance of danger to anyone! However, we cannot guarantee that these scrotes will not collide with tree after we have given up!



Ah! As usual common sense!



Wish they would see it that way and just give up! Unfortunately - some of these kids (and regrettably they are just kids) see it as some kind of macho challenge and even if we abort - we find they come back and goad a continued chase! Sometimes we manage to bang to rights and sometimes we end up giving up again!

Er, is that something to do with getting booster shots and worming tablets, or is your spell checker on the blink again?

I know that mate, and quite right too. Still, you're the one who keeps going on about being having higher standards in your day. Just think plod should go back to 'em, that's all. And please tell me you're kidding about pinged plods manning Talivans. Too cruel!

Okay, you guys are human too, well, apart from the odd jobsworth who joined up for the uniform and the power. Still, it's a little scary that trainee trafplods get red mist, but nice to know it gets dealt with. I hope it's either trained out of them or they get chucked off the course.

Fair point. No idea how you lot deal with eejits like that. They're going to drive dangerously anyway, so you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Another reason why alligator dentistry is probably an easier job than being a copper these days. Rather you than me mate.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein