Safe Speed Forums

And at the end of the day this is Central London, there are far more important hazards to be looking out for. I have already said that she was overtaking a cyclist, I don't know if there was an oncoming car or motorbike that has also decided to use the hatched area, thus necessitating a quicker exit than planned, plus the usual central london hazards of lanes randomly appearing, disappearing, turning into camera enforced bus lanes, lunatic road users of all types, build outs, random camera enforced box junctions with suddenly stopping and starting and so on.

It may have been completely unavoidable to enter the hole as the other alternative was to hit the oncoming pizza delivery moped that suddenly decided to overtake in the hatched area without checking for oncoming vehicles, there are certainly plenty of things that are more important to look out for than a hole that looked relatively benign at first glance from a distance due to it's gentle slope into the hole.

you can't avoid all of them even if you're riding a bike so I don't know how you expect people to manage in a car. Why can't you avoid them? Well some of them aren't readily apparent from a distance - even on a bike where you have better visibility than a car and are only moving at 15-20mph and unless you give your entire attention to staring at the bitumen then you're going to miss a few.
So I guess we have a choice. We can all drive at < 10mph watching out for potholes or we can expect the roads to be of a reasonable standard and keep our attention on more important things.

Yeah, but you should see the holes in Montreal –
http://www.canstockphoto.com/series.php?id=2722

Those lines mark the spot, after that some blokes come and fix the holes.
That’ll always be the way holes are fixed – first they spot them, then they
fill them. Could they fill them before they spot them!?! Should the spotter
fill them? No, because he’d spend all his time filling them, and spot less of
them.


The basic fact is that, however they spot and fill them, there’ll always be a
time when the hole is there. No mystery, end of story. And the people
who spot and fill the holes are not the people who cause the holes, so it’ll
still be the devil of a job to find someone to pin it on. Best drive slowly
enough to spot them yourself – like I do!

_________________
I stole this .sig

I like that first option a lot, johnsher, I have to say. Maybe 20mph is a
good compromise in narrow roads with pathways and people and
potholes?

_________________
I stole this .sig

Yeah, I’m sorry the wheel got smashed up, you live and learn, Lum (or you live and don’t learn, or you die, to complete the options).

Checkout those holes in Montreal. The policy there is to wait ‘til spring coz you can’t lay bitumen at 20 below. Basically, the potholes lie there for 6 months before they get fixed. So we got it good, over here. My policy is to expect nowt from anybody, then I can only be impressed.

_________________
I stole this .sig

But we're not in f*****g Montreal, we're in England with its temperate climate.
Maybe we should all buy large 4x4's with huge wheels and knobbly tyres so that we can negotiate these holes at any speed with no risk to wheels, tyres or suspension units.
It's simple really, the authorities knew the hole was there, marked it with white paint, failed to erect any sort of warning signs, failed in their dutyof-care and are, in consequence, liable for all damages and costs. Q.E.D.

He's only winding...

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Yeah - cars are not as sturdy as they used to be. I had a Ford Sierra a
while back – rough but tough! You only have to glance at a modern car to
cause £2000 in damage!



Ultimately, the driver is responsible because judges know that road
maintenance systems (like most systems) contain hysteresis.
The ‘authorities’ are obliged to avoid negligence by responding properly to
the issue in a timely and cost effective way. The lines mean nothing –
they are just a part of the maintenance response. Negligence may be
hard to prove, I’m afraid, and cost a fair bit. Perhaps she is insured? We
live in an era of blame litigation, so perhaps it might work.

But drivers must leave margin, or face the consequences. It is negligent
to drive with the expectation that all is fine up front. It ain’t.

_________________
I stole this .sig

No, I mean it, BottyBurp. Denial and blame shifting is part of the human process. But we’re only observing it, so no need to be defend it.

A lot of drivers think it's always somebody else's fault when they crash. That is no solution, I’m afraid – we are accountable for our own actions, at the end of the day, especially if we drive down a pothole the size of lake Windermere!

_________________
I stole this .sig

BW I assume that you would concur that if a child gets run over by a drunken then its parents can at least gain some positive learning from the experience and (assuming they have some spare) teach their kids to be more aware.

No. A cheap lesson (a close shave, a pothole incident, backing over the lawnmower, etc.) should be learned by the person making the mistake, not necessarily the person affected by it. The person who made the mistake can learn to avoid more serious events. It is a foretaste of a real risk, and (believe it or not) we are lucky if they happen to us before we get whacked for real.

_________________
I stole this .sig

I just noticed this page on Poole council's web site. This basically say that they are responsible for potholes. Maybe your council has something similar?

I didn't realise that these holes weren't "normal".

_________________
Andrew.

I recall a spoof item in Performance Bikes magazine that showed a picture of a road and a level crossing from a rider eye view with a caption asking the reader to predict the hazards that might occur. Over the page was the answer - the same picture but with a Rhino charging towards you, with caption "Bet you never thought of that!!!"

All drivers should expect to drive on well surfaced roads (I say expect as we all know what condition they are in).

Motorcyclists and cyclist are particularly vunerable with pot holes of that size. I damaged the wheel of an Yamaha R1 on a pot-hole. I did get the council to cough up but it was a long drawn out process.

Blimey! I agree with you entirely!

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

No driver should expect all roads to be well surfaced ones. That would be too optimistic - Lum's experience shows that roads are poor.



Yes - motorcyclists and cyclist in particular need to expect holes, and ride appropriately, because we know (as sure as night follows day) that holes happen.

_________________
I stole this .sig

But councils are still responsible. If they spent as much time, money & effort on the things that are really important, and not on things like loony-left lesbian, gay, minority rubbish, then maybe they'd have time to fix the roads?

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I once cycled through a pothole in Stockport and buckled my wheel, which I had to replace. I complained to Stockport council. They eventually "had a look", but not before it had mysteriously been filled in. They then argued that "I had no case, as there is a regular inspection and maintenance programme" on that road (the A6).

A new wheel only cost around £15 at the time, and it didn't seem worth the hassle of engaging a solicitor and taking them to court. If only I had had a camera to hand and obtained photographic evidence...

_________________
Brian

Is there any truth in "the faster you go over a pothole, the less impact it has on your vehicle"?

Reason I ask, it seems to me that speed humps seem less violent when I travel over them (in my car!) faster than I sometimes do?

_________________
Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Yeah, but the "Loony-left Gay Minorities Motorists Assocation" would reckon they suffer as much from potholes as the rest of us! I expect this argument has raged since before the first peasant farmer broke the spokes of his wagon on a Roman road. Those bloody Romans are always to blame!

_________________
I stole this .sig

They were right - there is always a delay before the appearance of a hole and filling it, no matter what. No maintainance program could fill the hole the instant it cropped up! Our expectations would be too high (and it would cost too much) if that is what we want. So, given that, we have to expect holes. There is just no way out of it, I'm afraid.

_________________
I stole this .sig